Reply to: Do jobs actually exist?

[spud]

Well Fungus you're quite right. I've given up trying to be a BA - seems I'm too technical, so will stick to something I know well and sod the outsourcing issue. I'd only kick myself that I didn't stay in it when the Indians don't deliver or they get too expensive.

[Fungus]

Luckily I have quite a few years of Oracle/J2ee with a few in .Net too, but I was (misled into?) thinking that outsourcing was making these skills redundant and financially viable and that it was my business skills that were important. Trouble is most BA positions seem to be non-IT.

I will try the direct sell approach now too, can't hurt.

Lucifer, you say you were out of work for a couple of months, what would people say is the normal length of time to be out of short 6 month contracts?

It sounds like you have good skills.

But you really have to apply for jobs that are a close match to your skill set. My current contract needed XML which I didn't have, but it only took a few days at work to learn the important basics. Generally you can't get a contract in a field that is new to you, but you can gradually shuffle sideways, using your key skills, and gradually learning new ones. In fact I find it easier to learn new stuff in a contract than as a permie. That might be because permie managers were worried that I would learn new skills and then bugger off.

Most contractors I know are in work with almost no breaks, but one who left 3 years ago during the big dip was out of work for over a year, and went to South America to teach English as a foreign language. That was apt as he was a Scot and when he spoke English it did sound like a foreign language. Lord knows what his students sound like. "Och Pedro, stitch thet".

Fungus

[boredsenseless]

Of course. Legitimate service fee. The agent may be too nervous or disorganised to raise an invoice for you, so do it on his behalf as a form of self-billing.

Its only tha same as any other cost of sale such as travel to customer, pre-sales work etc. Its legitimate from your side, it may not be on theirs but that isn't your lookout.

[Lucifer Box]

Lucifer, I never thought of the cash option but seems like a really good one. If I paid them cash then will I be able to put it through the ltd company accounts ?

Of course. Legitimate service fee. The agent may be too nervous or disorganised to raise an invoice for you, so do it on his behalf as a form of self-billing.

[Arun V]

Remember to offer them the £500 in cash, Spud. If one of them turns up with the goods you will forever have a hold on the agent because I'll bet you a chip to a bagful he will "forget" to mention the payment to both his boss and the taxman.

Lucifer, I never thought of the cash option but seems like a really good one. If I paid them cash then will I be able to put it through the ltd company accounts ?

[expat]

If these software houses can push the round pegs into the square hole, why can't the contracting agents do likewise

Because a contractor is taken on in order to be an exact match. A software house candidate needn't be, because the software house can then give him backup or training to get his work to the right level. Maybe.

[tim123]

Because you're not paying them to do that. In fact you're not paying them at all. Why should they bother? There's plenty of square pegs that needing fitting into some other square hole.

This is the opinions of myself and others on this board differes.

I think that they should bother, because they are trying to establish a long term relationship with the client.

They've often gone to a lot of work to get him and if they get a shed-load of job specs from him and fill none of them, they aren't going to keep him.

Tim

[boredsenseless]

Lucifer, you say you were out of work for a couple of months, what would people say is the normal length of time to be out of short 6 month contracts?

There isn't really a rule, and it depends on demand and skillset. I would be upset if I had been out of work for longer than 4 weeks (unless it was my choice to have a break).

Some people would consider 3 months acceptable. In all honesty it comes down to your financial state-of-health, if you've got the money to be sitting around it really doesn't matter

[spud]

Thanks chaps, you've given me a lot more ideas and reasons why I'm hitting a brick wall.
I thought having one long contract would be good, well it seems it might be a 2-edged sword as not many would believe that it was with one client as not many permies stay for that long(2.5 years isn't it ). I can split it into fewer large chunks to show mergers.

As to the outsourcing, well it's the reason I'm looking for a job - obviously I was asleep during the buildup and spent more time arguing politics than getting myself out - a permie trait of being too comfortable I think but without the redundancy package!

Luckily I have quite a few years of Oracle/J2ee with a few in .Net too, but I was (misled into?) thinking that outsourcing was making these skills redundant and financially viable and that it was my business skills that were important. Trouble is most BA positions seem to be non-IT.

I will try the direct sell approach now too, can't hurt.

Lucifer, you say you were out of work for a couple of months, what would people say is the normal length of time to be out of short 6 month contracts?

[boredsenseless]

I am told that you can send your CV direct to companies but make sure that they are suitable ones. Some companies do not like direct calls though.

Agree.

Phone the company main switchboard and ask to speak to HR. They'll put you through no bother.

Once in HR just breifly state that you are an IT Consultant looking for work in a particular field, and you understand X are leaders in that area (if you know they have a project you could even drop that in).

Then ask them if it would be possible to send in your CV so that the Project/Resourcing Manager could see if there is a possibility of you and them working together.

Occassionally they'll say yes and give you an address or email. More likely they will give you the name of their preferred supplier agent. Going through this guy greatly increases your chances of getting the role. Many smaller agents actually do this to get the preferred suppliers name, then find the exact match and negotiate with the pref supplier to split the margin. Obviously this lowers your rate so go straight to the person nearest the horses mouth.

[Not So Wise]

1) Yes
2) No
3) Read Below
4a) Sometimes it seems like that but there are real positions there.
4b) There are other sites but JS is most used one by far
5) No you cannot, this is why you have multiple versions of your CV and even these you customise to use same terminology as the advertised position in question
6) Every little bit helps no?

I'm an experienced contractor, some 20+ years of dealing direct with a client

Here i would say is your first major problem, anyone looking at this on your cv will think "permie", even if you were technically a contractor, like 20 years ffs!?!?!
If by chance it was for some type of consultancy then break the whole thing down on your cv so each of the consultancies clients look like a direct client (don't lie, just do a "creative" presentation).

If it was not a consultancy, for all intents you look on paper (and probably in reality) like a permie contracting for first time, with all the normal hardships secureing that "first contract" that generally entails

I'm looking for BA/Sys analysis/PM roles but I come from a developer background

This is your 2nd major problem, from permie > contractor and role change at same time. Most people would just toss your cv in the bin straight away at that.

"Contractor" is generally someone experienced at the required job (role change means you are not)
"Contractor" is also someone who is adaptable to totally new situations and enviorments and methods of operations, 20 year + quasi permie does not demostrate this.

So either "go permie" and try for role change or "go contractor" and stick with what you know, both together is a real long shot.

[Fungus]

Hi Chaps,
I'm an experienced contractor, some 20+ years of dealing direct with a client, and quite honestly confused with what agencies/employers want.
My cv, honed after quite a few weeks of tinkering, is damn near perfect, the agencies even agree, but sent off to the employer seem to be lost forever.
So, I have some questions for the more experienced of you out there:

1) Do jobs actually exist at the moment? I'm looking for BA/Sys analysis/PM roles but I come from a developer background (C#/Java/oracle/unix/legacy etc).
2) Most of the jobs advertised seem to be banking. Are these the only ones that are real?
3) Should I cut my losses and give up contracting and go permie....
4) Is Jobserve nothing more than a conspiracy for agents to get you on their books? Any better sites than this for contractors?
5) If, as I suspect, employers are just ticking boxes for required skills, what's the best way to stand out without knowing what the employer wants - is it just luck? You can't have a CV that covers everything.
6) Should I give up agencies and just contact all businesses.

Any help on this would be most welcome.

Yes jobs do exist. A few months ago when I was looking for a contract I heard from numerous sources - some reliable - that the market was much better than 6 months before, and that was better than a year or two back.

Yes there are non banking jobs, though banking seem to prevail.

Have you heard of outsourcing? It has appeared in the last few years of those 20 that you obviously slept through. In many companies most semi-skilled work is done by Indian contractors in the UK or overseas. For example Nokia have outsourced all protocol stack development!

Yes jobserve is useful. I have had all 3 contracts via jobserve. Most applications don't get a response though. I have noticed agents starting to give over the phone tests to candidates to weed out those that do not fit exactly. The one I got was an exact match to my skill set with recent proven experience. I have noticed they tend to want the harder to find skills these days e.g. multi-threading with strong C++ and UML/design, or strong telecoms L2 and L3 with 3G/GPRS stack development, etc. Any idiot can learn GUI skills. Maybe the same appliest to Java? I would have thought Oracle + Java would be useful.

I am told that you can send your CV direct to companies but make sure that they are suitable ones. Some companies do not like direct calls though.

Your CV might not be ideal despite what Mr. Nice Agent says? Most are semi-skilled and some are very dishonest. There is an article on this site about CVs though it is in parts mis-leading IMO.

Fungus.

[Lucifer Box]

Lucifer, cash it is then. Does anyone actually take you up on it? Has anyone else found this a good incentive, especially with xmas around the corner!

It worked spectacularly well for me. I had a contract within a week, after a couple of months of fruitless looking. I offered £1,000 as the prize for getting me a job but I made the agent buy me champagne out of it as I arranged to meet him at a bar in central London to hand over the cash in person.

[spud]

you make sense boredsenseless! I have been chasing but not everyday, so perhaps I will have to get firm with them incase they think I'm already sorted.

Lucifer, cash it is then. Does anyone actually take you up on it? Has anyone else found this a good incentive, especially with xmas around the corner!

[Lucifer Box]

It is interesting, and annoying, to read another job advertised on Jobserve that is a good match for your skills with an agency you recently spoke to. Only they didn't contact you.....
Huxley seem particularly good at that.

Maybe the £500 will work - I'm interested to see if greed can be a good promoter.....

Remember to offer them the £500 in cash, Spud. If one of them turns up with the goods you will forever have a hold on the agent because I'll bet you a chip to a bagful he will "forget" to mention the payment to both his boss and the taxman.