Reply to: Opt Out Notification

I'll let you into a little secret

Let me paint a picture for you Viking to try and put an end to all this "agents are scum - no they aren't" rubbish.

In the eyes of the vast majority of clients and the general public, contractors, consultants, freelancers or whatever they call themselves are seen as money grabbing swines with no moral scruples whatsoever. A necessary evil perhaps but an evil nonetheless.

In the eyes of clients, agents are seen as scum.

In other words it is irrelevant what agents think of contractors and what contractors think of agents because they are both detested but tolerated by the people who pay the bills - clients.

When you talk about "pimps" and "agents getting what they deserve"

Re: What will happen if you do not opt out

Sorry beccs, you must be confusing me with someone else, although I have never been a permie, I have worked direct and with many agencies for over 20 years which is probably why I feel the way I do about them and why I am trying so hard to find an alternative way of doing business without them.

Oh, and another thing, if agencies are so bleeding good and beneficial to everyone, why did the government of the '70s find it necessary to bring out legislation to control their actions and then to have to amend those same regulations 20 years later when nothing substantial had changed, except of course agencies trying to screw the bejesus out of everyone and everything.

Once again agencies are proving to be the lowest of the low with the same collective intelligence as a swarm of locusts. Instead of looking to these regs as beneficial to our industry as a whole, they are looking to them as punitive and courtesy of those morons at the PCG, they have been given the perfect tool to screw us with, namely the opt-out.

We have to take a leaf out of the agencies books and find ways to work within the opted-in regulations thereby giving the agencies little scope for movement. The PCG have done us a great dis-service by agreeing an opt-out for us and now we have to find a way of pushing back against the agency tide.

What is wrong with agreeing a little extra cut (say 2%) to the agency for remaining opted-in and then going direct with the client? You should be able to agree a 50-50 split of the agency commission and you should have earned enough in the first part of the contract to be able to cover the 60 days while you wait for payment. Although it may sound crass, it will actually be beneficial as you will be being paid after your contract has come to an end, so those resting periods won't be so painful. I have also suggested to some of the umbrella companies that they consider setting up factoring services for contractors because this is an obvious extension to their existing business model.

What is to fear if you are a good contractor in providing all the relevant information pertaining to your CV? In fact there are already web sites setting up who will take your CV and screen it for you, thereby providing a certificate confirming you are who you say you are. This can only be good for the industry as a whole because it will help weed out the dross.

Contractors need to discuss these options with their agencies rather than just accepting what they are being told so that the agencies can see there is benefit to these regs for them as well as for contractors.

At the end of the day if you are a contractor because it is a way of life rather than a job, then you have to be prepared to fight for that way of life every now and then, and people this is one of those times.

I also recommend all those who are paying to keep the PCG going, either you nominate a new set of representatives or you stop paying, because they are doing more damage than good at present. My teenage daughter could have told the PCG what the agencies would do given the option of an opt-out after all ATSCo were asking for it too. I have yet to hear of any pimp being magnanimous when it comes to their (our) business.

Re: What will happen if you do not opt out

very harsh.

Yes there are bad agents that behave as described above in Viking's message.
Just like there are bad contractors who do a sh1t job, lie on their CV, can't do the job they're applying for, take 2 contracts at once, are lazy, leave halfway through, keep posting on this board etc etc

I have been on contracts through bad agents and through good agents, and I appreciate the difference that a good agent has made, not only to me but to the client too.

I think you have said somewhere else that you have never ever contracted through agents, and maybe this explains your dark-tinted view of the agents world. Certainly lots of them are scum. But it is a skill of the contracting business to recognise the sharks from the dolphins (!?) - it is simply part of the hazards/risks to our business.

Re: What will happen if you do not opt out

A lot has been discussed about the way agencies are using these regs to their own advantage and 'bullying' contractors into doing what they are told, namely opting-out.

As contractors we have a lot more power than a lot of people seem to think we do, namely if an agency is being a pain, just go the client and talk about it. I know of numerous instances when a client has called a pimp in and hauled him over the coals for being a prat. The client is King in this instance as there are hundreds (if not thousands) of agencies out there all desperate to get the business, so if pimp knows what's good for him he sorts things out pdq.

Instead of whining about the way we are being treated by agencies, we should start to do things about it. There is an awful lot of garbage thrown out by agencies about 'the law'. I have yet to meet a pimp who knows contract law, let alone the full impact of these regs.

We are in the better position to create a good relationship with the client as we work with them on a daily basis. The pimp only sees the client on an infrequent basis and then usually to buy lunch or send through a Xmas card.

There is nothing to stop you inviting your boss and your colleagues out for a drink and then getting a round in, you will be surprised how well that goes down. While in Germany on her last contract, the wife used to invite her colleagues (and boss) around to her apartment for the occasional meal. As they were mostly Yanks and Brits, good 'ol home cooking went down a storm.

Also, point out to the agency that if they make the contract long enough with an appropriate termination clause (1 month minimum) then there is no issue about transferring to the client at the end of the contract so another reason to opt-out is sorted. Oh, and if the agency tried to enforce a contract lock-in they would truly be treated to an education in 'the law' as once again clients have the money and muscle to be able to fight court cases like this.

Agencies are saying that unless you opt-out you will have to provide all sorts of personal information to prove who you are, this was in the original Agency Act of the early '70s so why is it suddenly so important. It isn't, it is only important to use as a stick to beat you with. Might I suggest that you spend a little time whilst resting from you last contract to put together a pack of all the relevant information you think you will need and the next time an agent asks for this kind of stuff simply copy them the pack. Include everything, Birth Certificate, copy of passport, copy of marriage certificate, go to the STD clinic and get tested send a copy of the report, get all your certificates together for every course you've ever done including the pottery class you did whilst on holiday in Majorca last year, get letters of recommendation from your old clients and include those (take the names and contact details off so you're not giving the pimps free contacts), when asked to provide references to pimps, provide them with a list of all your previous agents and agencies, again this is in line with the new regs, send a copy of your results from Mensa and finally don't forget to include a copy of your current TV and driving licenses.

I hope other people on this board will come up with other ideas which will enable contractors to work within the regs and make life just a little bit more difficult for the agencies, because if Oak is correct then the agencies could be out of business in 6 months, maybe then they will actually start to give contractors the credit they deserve.

And to the agents reading this post, don't blame contractors for your own short-comings. If a contractor has shafted you or done a bad job at a client site, remember YOU chose them, so you are as much to blame for their behavior, after all you should have done a better job of screening them and maybe if you looked at the new regs with that in mind you will see that they can be used to help you provide a better quality of candidate and to help weed out the dross from our industry who are I might add, only being allowed to flourish because of the incompetence of agencies.

Re: What will happen if you do not opt out

Yes...it was recently changed on the 6th of April

Regards

Mailman

Re: What will happen if you do not opt out

You are right, I have consulted other sources.
An opt out can be withdrawn as long as it is done before the work commences.

My bad.

Correction.
I have been to the Dti web site and looked at their guidance document.
In section 32 (the limited company section) para 9 on page 33 it clearly says before introduction or commencement.
There is no mention of opting back in.

I think this is a recent change.

Re: What will happen if you do not opt out

You can change your status BEFORE you start the contract. However, once the contracted has started and you have opted out you are rooted until renewal.

Mailman

Re: What will happen if you do not opt out

I dont see how, once you have met the client you can change that status?
Well that's the thing, I think you can. You can change it up to the minute you start working on that assignment.
Sorry can't offer any link / ref /proof. I may be wrong, and therefore you may be right, but I am 90% convinced I have seen something along those lines.

Re: What will happen if you do not opt out

In the regulations you must make your status known "before" introduction to the client based on the terms and conditions presented.
I dont see how, once you have met the client you can change that status?
Sure you can give them a letter saying you are opted back in but it means nothing for that particular contract!

Read the regs, its there in black and white.

Re: What will happen if you do not opt out

Widget, I think technically Mailman is right. You can tell the agent "yes yes I am opting out", sign the contract and before you start your assignment, write a letter saying you are opting back in. I think I have seen somewhere that it is possible and legal to do that
(obviously the agent will hate you if you do that and you might find they don't necessarily pay you on time from then on...)

Re: What will happen if you do not opt out

You can always agree with them and opt out and when you get the contract sign it and also send another letter back to them saying you are opting back in

No you can't.
Your "opted" status is valid for the length of the contract! This even covers extensions unless there is a material change in the contract.

Re: What will happen if you do not opt out

You can always agree with them and opt out and when you get the contract sign it and also send another letter back to them saying you are opting back in.

Mailman

Re: What will happen if you do not opt out

One of the things agents do is talk up how bad things will be for you if you don't do things their way. Looks like Oaksoft is really getting into this agent thing.

Re: What will happen if you do not opt out

You are right Becs, however...the agents profit from the original term of the contract (1 month, 2 months 10 years). Whether they get a subsequent cut is dependent on how they look after their contractors.

If they piss them around like my first agent did then its sionara kimosabe when its renewal time.

Having said that...I do think its rather underhanded of contractors to try and cut the agent out straight away...at least wait until the end of the current contract before doing that.

On the other hand, agents arent exactly their own best friends are they? I would say dodgy acts by agents far outweighs dodgy acts by contractors.

BTW, Agent doesnt want to work with contractors. Something about small hands and smelling of cabbages :lol

Mailman

Re: What will happen if you do not opt out

I agree Becs, and I am not against opting out. What I am against is agents and clients using these new regs to bully me, or anyone else, into submission.
We should be able to use these regs to our advantage by negotiating opted out contracts on a B2B basis instead of arguing the toss with the agent.