Reply to: Sigh. Contract wording wrangles, once again.

[expat]

I don't think I've met one agency that understands it.

squat

[Beefy198]

I don't think I've met one agency that understand it.

[MaryPoppins]

WHS - the opt out must be:

- voluntary

- in writing

- before your are introduced to the client (i.e. the client could identify you, so this could even be as early as seeing your CV if it is not anonymous. Certainly, it's once you interview).

Most, if not all, agencies that I have dealt with are completely unaware of this. Even the ones that were so impressive with everything else did not understand it, which was disappointing when I realized that.

Ditto. I have been trying to explain the introduction rule to this agency since before I signed the original contract, and they will not accept it. Not even their "legal experts".

[TheFaQQer]

Mary if they're insisting that you're Opted OUT then ask them for the documentary proof, on paper clearly showing your signature next to the VOLUNTARY opt out. You should ask for the ORIGINAL copy too.

As you clearly know the majority of the Agency staff haven't a clue what opting in or out actually means, they're just instructed to gain an opt out by fair means or foul at almost any cost.

WHS - the opt out must be:

- voluntary

- in writing

- before your are introduced to the client (i.e. the client could identify you, so this could even be as early as seeing your CV if it is not anonymous. Certainly, it's once you interview).

Most, if not all, agencies that I have dealt with are completely unaware of this. Even the ones that were so impressive with everything else did not understand it, which was disappointing when I realized that.

[TykeMerc]

Mary if they're insisting that you're Opted OUT then ask them for the documentary proof, on paper clearly showing your signature next to the VOLUNTARY opt out. You should ask for the ORIGINAL copy too.

As you clearly know the majority of the Agency staff haven't a clue what opting in or out actually means, they're just instructed to gain an opt out by fair means or foul at almost any cost.

[MaryPoppins]

I am currently contracting through Sanderson and in their defence I have been neither forced nor coerced to opt out... it was my choice.

As a long term contractor I am aware that these opt-in clauses were put in place to protect lower paid temporary workers such as seasonal box packers or cleaners - not tier 1 professional IT staff working for blue chip corporates, and as such I find them more of a hindrance than a help.

Actually, the legislation itself was put in place to protect agency temps. The option to opt in or out was provided for professional consultants. Opting out is not always a definite, it should be something to be considered with each new assignment in my opinion.

Opting in is a hindrance - for agencies. As long as I am not suddenly then presented with an IR35 unfriendly contract, it does me no harm. Agencies will insist that the client will find me yacky if I opt in (not quite sure how that one works, as surely it would benefit them, if they are even aware of it), or that I will be treated "as an employee" if I opt in (and can never then justify that statement).

I have only ever come across one agency who approached this in the appropriate manner and did not strong arm me by saying "right, now all we need you to do is opt out".

I could rant about this one for a while, as you can probably tell! It's not so much that I am always desperate to opt in - it's more that I highly resent being treated like an idiot by agents who, when quizzed, actually know nothing about the regulations other than what they are instructed to parrot.

Phew.

[MaryPoppins]

Agree completely.

Oh and Mary they're just trying to strongarm you, just be firm, polite and flat out refuse to accept the T's & C's you dislike. If it gets nasty as others have said talk to the Client and tell them the new Agency isn't acceptable where as the previous ones were fine, they will sort the Agent out.

I also concur.

Thanks Tyke, have been firm and polite, and even slightly bemused by their unwavering tactics. They claim I am opted out and are sticking to it. The last email from them stated more or less that "as far as both we and the client are concerned, you are opted out" and that they are "happy" for me to continue under previous T's & C's as long as I was aware of this. (I almost admire their stubborn stance).

I politely replied and told them that NO, I have been opted in, and will remain so, and that signing their contract with the clauses as mentioned will not change this fact. I did also point out that my opt in/out status is nothing to do with the client. I mentioned my 'concern' that such a professional agency (hope their sarcasm detector is off) would become so threatening in their approach towards what is a clear cut matter. End of, as far as I was concerned. Hilariously, their reply was a 'thanks for your email, please note, as we have stated, you are, and will remain, opted out of the EAA Regs 2003'.

Sigh. Let them have their fun.

[TykeMerc]

I consider the opportunity to go direct a mere 8 weeks after contract completion / 14 weeks after contract start a significant bonus, rather than a hindrance.

I also consider the guarantee of getting paid a bonus, but each to their own.

Agree completely.

Oh and Mary they're just trying to strongarm you, just be firm, polite and flat out refuse to accept the T's & C's you dislike. If it gets nasty as others have said talk to the Client and tell them the new Agency isn't acceptable where as the previous ones were fine, they will sort the Agent out.

[TheFaQQer]

I am currently contracting through Sanderson and in their defence I have been neither forced nor coerced to opt out... it was my choice.

As a long term contractor I am aware that these opt-in clauses were put in place to protect lower paid temporary workers such as seasonal box packers or cleaners - not tier 1 professional IT staff working for blue chip corporates, and as such I find them more of a hindrance than a help.

I consider the opportunity to go direct a mere 8 weeks after contract completion / 14 weeks after contract start a significant bonus, rather than a hindrance.

I also consider the guarantee of getting paid a bonus, but each to their own.

[Beefy198]

If you opt out at this stage, then it makes no difference, but you would be considered opted out for any future roles with the agency. You can't opt out once the client knows who you are - end of. That's the same for a renewal (in fact even more so!) than at the start of the contract.

Cheers, that was my understanding of it

I am currently contracting through Sanderson and in their defence I have been neither forced nor coerced to opt out... it was my choice.

The letter says it is a requirement to opt out.... that would be pretty good coercing even if you DID want to sign it

[Svalbaard]

Sanderson plc is one of those, they even put it on the letter that comes with the contract....

Anyway, I meant "forced" in exactly the sense you state there - they will make things pretty difficult for you. Most people would just sign it to save the hassle

I am currently contracting through Sanderson and in their defence I have been neither forced nor coerced to opt out... it was my choice.

As a long term contractor I am aware that these opt-in clauses were put in place to protect lower paid temporary workers such as seasonal box packers or cleaners - not tier 1 professional IT staff working for blue chip corporates, and as such I find them more of a hindrance than a help.

[MaryPoppins]

If you opt out at this stage, then it makes no difference, but you would be considered opted out for any future roles with the agency. You can't opt out once the client knows who you are - end of. That's the same for a renewal (in fact even more so!) than at the start of the contract.

I would push back and say that you will only sign a contract that is identical to the current one, with the exception of the end date. Surely they can't expect anything different?? I've never renewed with a whole new contract - usually I get a set of T&C's at the start and a schedule of works which details the specifics for that project. When I get a renewal, it's just a new schedule that gets raised.

Thanks, didn't know that first bit. The covering letter accompanying the contract stated that I was to read the contract as T&C's have been amended.

[TheFaQQer]

If you opt out at this stage, then it makes no difference, but you would be considered opted out for any future roles with the agency. You can't opt out once the client knows who you are - end of. That's the same for a renewal (in fact even more so!) than at the start of the contract.

I would push back and say that you will only sign a contract that is identical to the current one, with the exception of the end date. Surely they can't expect anything different?? I've never renewed with a whole new contract - usually I get a set of T&C's at the start and a schedule of works which details the specifics for that project. When I get a renewal, it's just a new schedule that gets raised.

[MaryPoppins]

Of course, technically you can decide to change your opt out/opt in status at the end of your assignment, but does that include renewals? I didn't think it would but someone feel free to correct me

I was opted in from the beginning of this role (as mentioned before, it was because I'd forgotten to send an opt out letter before interview and they only broached it at contract. At that point I was glad to be opted in, having read the contract..!). I wasnt sure how it worked with renewals, but I have made an active decision to opt in this time round, which is clearly riling them.

Funnily enough I havent heard a thing from them, so I just called and asked to speak to their legal department. The girl who answered was adamant that she would call me back once they had "sorted it out". I explained patiently that there was nothing to sort out - I am opted in, and the clauses I have pointed out are not enforceable anyway. I will probably cave and sign the first page without comment and resend. I wont sign the opt out however. Realistically I don't think they will try to withhold payment, and I won't be going direct with this client. I am just sick and tired of reading this absurd contracts which have an implication on my business. A contractor here yesterday overheard a conversation with the agent and asked me what the palava was. I explained briefly and he looked baffled, then admitted he rarely bothered reading contracts. Moron.

Phew! Rant over.

[Beefy198]

My argument was with Ajilon.

They didn't understand that since I'd already interviewed for the job, I'd been introduced to the client, therefore I couldn't opt out even if I wanted to...

Of course, technically you can decide to change your opt out/opt in status at the end of your assignment, but does that include renewals? I didn't think it would but someone feel free to correct me