Reply to: Umbrella Co's that pay on reciept of timesheet

[Not So Wise]

And back to dave's original question, except for the few exceptions mentioned above (prior agreements/relationships between agency and umbrella) answer is no, generally umbrellas don't charge enough to warrant taking that kind of financial risk (if they do you are paying to much). They are little more than middle men, money in/money out with a small cut taken out

Agencys though on the other hand, well any agency that tried to withhold payment from me because client had not paid yet would not be my agency for long, not only because what happens between agency and client has jack tulip to do with me but because i would then have zero confidence in that agencys ability to continue operating as it would seem they seem to have so little operating revenue and/or such a poor relationship with their client that they don't have confidence that they will pay.

[Not So Wise]

I don't mind going to make you a cup of tea but how do you explain the umbrella carrying the financial risk (that the agency won't pay), just like that, for you, for free? Now I understand the agency doing it (but only if you're opted in, and because the regulations say they have to), but the umbrella, sorry, no, don't understand. And I used to be with Giant so I know they don't do it. Your turn.

Basiclly because they have an agreement with the agency to bypass the normal procedural paperwork to speed up the payment process. It's what "prefurred supplyer" agreements should be about, not backhanders under the table.
Contractors submits timesheet, umbrella forwards it on straight to agency, agencys says all fine, umbrella then trusts agency's word because they have an established relationship that they will pay next billing cycle and pays contractor straight away.
If anything goes wrong (aka client not paying agency) agency takes the hit. so you might ask whats in it for the agency? Get to deal with people who know and work according to their methods and probably a percentage of the profits from the work forwarded to the umbrellla
Umbrella gets more clients, thus more revenue
Contractor gets paid faster

Nice when it works but if anything goes wrong with either agency or umbrella you will probably have both client and umbrella against you and forget impartiality from either of them

Though looking at the two mentioned doing it here (Giant and especially Computer Futures) i would not touch either with barge pole

[planetit]

Giant could pay me double, a week before I did the work, and I still wouldn't work for them. Never ever ever ever!

[Rebecca Loos]

No questions. I apologise. You're obviously dealing with them and that's the way it works now. When I was with them, it was never like that! But then again I have never worked with CF, so maybe these 2 are related or have an agreement. Giant must trust CF quite a lot tho'! You reap the benefits - well done. I have to say I have never heard of any umbrellas operating like that.

[The Late, Great JC]

I don't mind going to make you a cup of tea but how do you explain the umbrella carrying the financial risk (that the agency won't pay), just like that, for you, for free? Now I understand the agency doing it (but only if you're opted in, and because the regulations say they have to), but the umbrella, sorry, no, don't understand. And I used to be with Giant so I know they don't do it. Your turn.

Right, here we go again!

I fill in the electronic timesheet for Computer Futures, print it, get it signed and fax it to CF.
Computer Futures send an electronic copy of the timesheet to Giant who then raise an electronic invoice and send it to CF.
Computer Futures receive the invoice and send a confirmation to Giant detailing when the payment will be made.
Giant then put me on the payroll for the next run.

Timesheet Monday, money in bank Tuesday. Giant get the money in their bank on the Friday.

Any more questions?

[boredsenseless]

I've never worked with Giant but unless they are fools I think I'd agree with rebecca.

I often get suppliers saying they are about to pay and then they don't for a while - and in the meantime if you've sent money out of your account you are stuffed.

You're lucky that you get paid on receipt of funds most organisations inisist on waiting for an inordinant period of time after invoice date.




Of course it all depends on the kickback and arrangements between G and the agency if there is enough margin in it for G then they might do it as they can get insurance to cover the shortfall

[Rebecca Loos]

I don't mind going to make you a cup of tea but how do you explain the umbrella carrying the financial risk (that the agency won't pay), just like that, for you, for free? Now I understand the agency doing it (but only if you're opted in, and because the regulations say they have to), but the umbrella, sorry, no, don't understand. And I used to be with Giant so I know they don't do it. Your turn.

[The Late, Great JC]

I used to be with Giant and they only paid when they got paid themselves (fast BACS transfer, OK, but never before they received the money from the agency!)

I don't really understand how an umbrella would pay you before they receive the monies?

Because they receive authorisation to pay by the agency. Now be a dear and go and makes us all a lovely cup of tea.

[Rebecca Loos]

I used to be with Giant and they only paid when they got paid themselves (fast BACS transfer, OK, but never before they received the money from the agency!)

I don't really understand how an umbrella would pay you before they receive the monies?

[The Late, Great JC]

Do I ask you to elaborate on your “thou shalt not….” Rules JC?

Now, now, that was feck all to do with me! You can blame Moses for that one(those ten?)!

[planetit]

Do I ask you to elaborate on your “thow shalt not….” Rules JC?

No need to elaborate. It’s an absolute rule.

Never, ever have anything to do with Giant.

[The Late, Great JC]

Never, ever have anything to do with Giant.

HTH.

Do elaborate old boy!

[planetit]

It might be worth you checking if Giant can do this with your agency.

Never, ever have anything to do with Giant.

HTH.

[The Late, Great JC]

2) no umbrella will ever pay you if they don't get paid by the agency. They only pay when they have been paid.

Wrong.

Giant will in exactly the circumstances I have mentioned.

[Rebecca Loos]

Dave,

You have forgotten one party in your chain: the agency.

Most agencies will pay you (or your umbrella if you have added an umbrella company in the chain) even if they haven't invoiced the client yet. I believe it is a legal requirement on them not to withhold payment to you when they haven't yet collected payment from the end client. Which is just as well since very often the client-agency relationship is a true business-to-business relationship where invoices are paid up to 90 days after submission. And you don't want to wait for 90 days to get paid, do you?

So, to answer your question: the end client is not really involved in the non-payment of your invoice, so it's no use involving them. If there is a dispute between the umbrella and the agency, then it is either the umbrella company who's cocked up the invoicing, or the agency that is creating a problem.

In summary, two points:
1) the agency will pay you even if they haven't been paid by the client (as long as they have received a valid timesheet and invoice from the umbrella).
2) no umbrella will ever pay you if they don't get paid by the agency. They only pay when they have been paid.