Reply to: Is anyone else thinking

[HeliCraig]

I couldn't give a toss what my pimps margin is. Fact is, I've negoatiated my highest ever rate and I'm happy with that so more power to his elbow.

People need to concentrate more on their own negotiating and less on moaning about ther pimps (not that I'd defend them of course)...

WHS.

I have had a conversation with my pimp today, for I know that a colleague (doing the same job, but not as well in the eyes of ClientCo - so I have been told) is invoicing £2 an hour more than me.
(Don't leave invoices on printers. Stupid. )

I am told that ClientCo pays the same for both of us - and have been offered site of the invoice to prove this (not necessary).

Now, if the Pimps can accept a lower margin in one instance then in my book they will need a damn good reason to offer me a lower invoice rate on renewal.

I have been a good boy and honored the rate I agreed to for this contract, despite knowing about this for approx 6 months, and I have addressed it in a professional manner with them. We will now see what they do. I know that Snr Manager at Client Co is seeing it from my perspective and is keen to renew, so lets hope they sort it out.

At the end of the day I don't give two flying monkeys what the pimps margin is - I can't spend it in the pub or on shoes / assorted junk for my loving girlfriend.

HC.

[Another Dodgy Agent]

I don't care (much) about the agents margin unless their margin impacts my rate. In the event of the agency and client having a fixed percentage markup that ceases to be an issue and the whole relationship becomes far more transparent and mutual trust is easier.

Unfortunately like most of the posters on this board my experience of agents indicates that they are largely shyster salesmen who are more interested in their margin than in placing me or placing the ideal candidate into a role I may have on offer.

Well I won't deny, I do recruitment to earn money (wifey's demand for shoes, handbags and associated garbage), however, my company is owned by an ex IT contractor, the shareholder's are largely ex contractor's, I have never been under the constraints of any sales targets, the majority of our clients are former contractors who went perm. Its the only agency I have ever worked for. If I ever leave, then I would leave the recruitment industry.

To top it all I wished a candidate the best of luck with an interview today - which was through another agent at another client site, even though he has an interview at my client site Friday. From what you guy's state I must be losing it

[TykeMerc]

I couldn't give a toss what my pimps margin is. Fact is, I've negoatiated my highest ever rate and I'm happy with that so more power to his elbow.

People need to concentrate more on their own negotiating and less on moaning about ther pimps (not that I'd defend them of course)...

I don't care (much) about the agents margin unless their margin impacts my rate. In the event of the agency and client having a fixed percentage markup that ceases to be an issue and the whole relationship becomes far more transparent and mutual trust is easier.

Unfortunately like most of the posters on this board my experience of agents indicates that they are largely shyster salesmen who are more interested in their margin than in placing me or placing the ideal candidate into a role I may have on offer.

[lambrini_socialist]

I couldn't give a toss what my pimps margin is. Fact is, I've negoatiated my highest ever rate and I'm happy with that so more power to his elbow.

People need to concentrate more on their own negotiating and less on moaning about ther pimps (not that I'd defend them of course)...

sure, i'd be the first to agree. my issue was that the pimp turned my rate down, so i turned down the renewal on offer. the client then got wind of it, and pointed out to the pimp that the rate i'd asked for was actually reasonable given their fixed-margin agreement which was, as you say, none of my business.

[ratewhore]

I couldn't give a toss what my pimps margin is. Fact is, I've negoatiated my highest ever rate and I'm happy with that so more power to his elbow.

People need to concentrate more on their own negotiating and less on moaning about ther pimps (not that I'd defend them of course)...

[lambrini_socialist]

Very few agencies have fixed margin agreements

in my (limited) experience, agencies that do have a fixed margin agreement with a client are quite happy to tell their contractors otherwise. i nearly lost a renewal this way when an agent wouldn't budge on rate - in the end the client had to step in and remind them of the arrangement.

this wasn't helped by another contractor inserting himself into the recruitment / renewal process and bulltulipting us all about what rates were available. given that the client pays the same rate for all of us, i'm pretty sure he had a nice little rate-fixing scam going with the agent. ("you keep my margins high with the other contractors, and i'll give you a top rate" kind of thing).

of course i kicked up a stink about it and now everything is peachy.

[TykeMerc]

Blimey reading the above and the other posts on here you folks have really been scarred in your past dealings with agencies!

No kidding, after almost 18 years contracting and a couple of permy jobs prior to that I've seen an awful lot of appalling agency tactics and dealt with hundreds of agents, less than 5% are worth a damn, most are only interested in the next sale and won't communicate if you're not it, not even to tell you that you've not got the role.

Regarding rate, I always ask "what rate would you ideally be looking for based on the role we have discussed?" - if the client has not provided rate parameters. If the client has provided a rate then I quote that rate. My Margin has been decided upon by my client, i.e. agree to 12% and you can work our roles, if I don't agree to that then I don't get the roles - simple.

In my experience (and I'm sure most posters on this board share it) agents ask my rate hoping that I will mention a price below what their customer is willing to pay. Very few agencies have fixed margin agreements with their clients so if they can skim 50% of the rate they will. Most agents take a lot of pushing to actually reveal what the client price range is and even then it's not easy to believe them since you only have their word for it.

I never ask a candidate to look at reducing rate, after all what would be the point, it would just shrink my margin as well and the winner is the client company who tends to have a lot more money than either my agency or your Ltd Co.

As said above a lower rate for the contractor = higher margin for the agent in many situations.

I don't care about where else your interviewing. All I care about is you accepting the role at my client site if you are offered. Some agent's working on new business think they can gain a lead by finding out who is interviewing but generally it doesn't work. Why? Because if a client is at interview stage then normally the last thing the hiring manager wants is another agent on the phone saying "I hear your looking for Fund Accounting BA's, I have some good candidate's you may be interested in..." or "I understand your interviewing Mr John Smith for this role, can I advise you that he has some bad references..." - yeah right, given the downer most contractor's have on agencies, what makes you think for a minute a client is going to be influenced by said barrow boy?

Most agents are punting for new leads all the time, if they find out a client is interviewing they will push at the client on the off chance they have other roles or the candidates they have aren't up to snuff.
I've suffered the joys of having the old desk/number of a Hiring Manager and hired myself and the quantity of calls I've taken and had to cut off runs into the hundreds, agents are generally a despicable bunch.

Regarding talking down the market, I am advising the opposite at the moment. Clients are taking on more contractors during this period. Why? Because if budgets are cut or projects canned then they can give the contractor notice rather than having to organise redundancy plans. Perm recruitment (in my sector at least) has dropped off completely. Why? Because perm candidate's are sticking where they are at the moment rather than looking for a new job during economic uncertainty. I am advising my clients that they need to look to organise renewals at least 8 weeks ahead of end of contract for contractor's or risk losing them to competitors and that any perm recruitment they are doing they need to look at a long haul before they find the ideal candidate, however in the meantime an interim contractor may fit the bill!
It's all good out there folks!

Only time will tell on this assertion.

[gingerjedi]

It’s a win win situation for the agency, the professional contractor is forced to compete with less skilled contractors and the end client ends up with contractors prepared to work for the said rate who will invariably be less skilled than the pro despite the fact the client is paying the agency for the pro.

Not only that, the client will lose out when the pro moves on at the first opportunity to something more deserving of his skills.

Does that make sense??

[Spacecadet]

I'll just quote myself on the matter:

Telephone call 1
Agent: Unfortunately, due to the down turn in the economy a lot of contractors have either gone for permanent jobs or are refusing to leave steady contracts, as a result we'll be unable to secure anybody for that role under £400 per day
Client: Wow are things that bad? well we really do need some one in or we're fliped. Just make sure they're good

Telephone call 2
Agent: Unfortunately, due to the down turn in the economy a lot of companies are either relying purely on permament staff they already have or are shelving IT projects, however essential, till things pick up. As things are, this client is refusing to go above £200 per day, I'm really sorry, I've tried my hardest but i can't do anything to budge them.
Contractor: flip

[Another Dodgy Agent]

Oh for Goodness' sake! This is not new. The answer to "How are you finding the market?" is ALWAYS "Pretty good at the moment, actually".

"What is your rate?"
"What was your last rate?"
-- don't answer, just tell him what you want next.

"How many interviews have you had?"
-- a couple of phone interviews but I haven't made a definite decision yet.
(and then DON'T tell him where).

"Are you willing to reduce your rate?"
-- I can't really go any lower than that.

"How long have you been looking?"
-- I'm not actively looking at the moment. They will probably offer me an extension here, but I'd consider not taking it if something interesting comes up.

They ARE trying to talk down the market; or at least, if I were to be charitable, trying to find out what the bottom is. It's part of their business. In fact it's most of their business: the point where they fix how much you get (and therefore how much they keep for themselves) is where the money comes from.

Blimey reading the above and the other posts on here you folks have really been scarred in your past dealings with agencies!

I have certainly learnt something this morning from this. I always ask the above ("How are you finding the market" and "How long have you been looking") as conversation opener's, I know how the market is, I just want to get an understanding of how my candidate thinks the market is.

Regarding rate, I always ask "what rate would you ideally be looking for based on the role we have discussed?" - if the client has not provided rate parameters. If the client has provided a rate then I quote that rate. My Margin has been decided upon by my client, i.e. agree to 12% and you can work our roles, if I don't agree to that then I don't get the roles - simple.

I never ask a candidate to look at reducing rate, after all what would be the point, it would just shrink my margin as well and the winner is the client company who tends to have a lot more money than either my agency or your Ltd Co.

I don't care about where else your interviewing. All I care about is you accepting the role at my client site if you are offered. Some agent's working on new business think they can gain a lead by finding out who is interviewing but generally it doesn't work. Why? Because if a client is at interview stage then normally the last thing the hiring manager wants is another agent on the phone saying "I hear your looking for Fund Accounting BA's, I have some good candidate's you may be interested in..." or "I understand your interviewing Mr John Smith for this role, can I advise you that he has some bad references..." - yeah right, given the downer most contractor's have on agencies, what makes you think for a minute a client is going to be influenced by said barrow boy?

Regarding talking down the market, I am advising the opposite at the moment. Clients are taking on more contractors during this period. Why? Because if budgets are cut or projects canned then they can give the contractor notice rather than having to organise redundancy plans. Perm recruitment (in my sector at least) has dropped off completely. Why? Because perm candidate's are sticking where they are at the moment rather than looking for a new job during economic uncertainty. I am advising my clients that they need to look to organise renewals at least 8 weeks ahead of end of contract for contractor's or risk losing them to competitors and that any perm recruitment they are doing they need to look at a long haul before they find the ideal candidate, however in the meantime an interim contractor may fit the bill!

It's all good out there folks!

[expat]

I tend to agree. Some Agents' typical questions such as How is the market now, What is your rate, What was your last rate, Are you willing to reduce your rate, how many interviews you had, how long you have been looking... all these questions (except to discuss the role) appear to be with the intention to drive down the rate..

There appears to be a big drive to kill the contract market.

Oh for Goodness' sake! This is not new. The answer to "How are you finding the market?" is ALWAYS "Pretty good at the moment, actually".

"What is your rate?"
"What was your last rate?"
-- don't answer, just tell him what you want next.

"How many interviews have you had?"
-- a couple of phone interviews but I haven't made a definite decision yet.
(and then DON'T tell him where).

"Are you willing to reduce your rate?"
-- I can't really go any lower than that.

"How long have you been looking?"
-- I'm not actively looking at the moment. They will probably offer me an extension here, but I'd consider not taking it if something interesting comes up.

They ARE trying to talk down the market; or at least, if I were to be charitable, trying to find out what the bottom is. It's part of their business. In fact it's most of their business: the point where they fix how much you get (and therefore how much they keep for themselves) is where the money comes from.

[darrenb]

beware the shake out

There appears to be a big drive to kill the contract market.

It's as if the order has come down from above: "Okay, this is the bust phase, now you have to break the spirit of the contractors and turn as many of them as you can to permies."

Don't give out any rate information because that goes on your record and you will be limited to that not just for the current opportunity (probably imaginary anyway) but for any future opportunities. Imagine you have been beaten down to £300 now and a year later a £500 job that suits your skills comes along... what do you think the goon is going to offer you?

If there are simply no jobs, then it is better not to search at all because it is only going to depress you. I am fed up. My skills are well regarded but I am just going to have to go on holiday until companies start hiring again.

The whole price-fixing system is such an incredible waste of people's time and talent. I have little respect for any client that even uses recruiters.

[BolshieBastard]

This is the only reason agencies have been reporting good results for the last year.

Its not that they are getting new business or placing significantly more contractors.

Its due to screwing rates down while taking more from clients.

[mailric]

from the agencies persepctive, they need to make the most off each contract now that the market is slowing, so theyre going to try anything to squeeze rates down for contractors.

But you can bet your right bolok that theyre telling clients "well, you see alot of contractors have 'gone permanent/stayed in current contract/some other bullshlt' due to the volatile market conditions, so there arent many available resources out there, so unfortunatey you'll have to pay premium rates for the right candidate."

[Ashwin2007]

I tend to agree. Some Agents' typical questions such as How is the market now, What is your rate, What was your last rate, Are you willing to reduce your rate, how many interviews you had, how long you have been looking... all these questions (except to discuss the role) appear to be with the intention to drive down the rate..

There appears to be a big drive to kill the contract market.