Reply to: Holiday Annual Leave Time Off

[kali]

It is concerning that small businesses often behave disrespectfully towards their clients because they believe that being reasonable can be deemed as a pointer towards employment.

Blame El Gordo - I would be a lot more flexible if it wasn't for IR35

[phil5476]

Can you do that middle bit more simply, please? Does "No one of any contractual arrangement can afford to ignore protocols designed to maintain delivery capacity" mean that regardless of what it says in the contract, you better do it the client's way or you'll suffer?

No it means you live & die by delivery. Not having a negotiation over when you will not be 'providing services' (or time off as everyone else calls it) kills you because it undermines delivery.

[Integrity]

& of course crucially, the piper chooses how he plays the tune, call it artistic license.

Of course
1) Client decides what
2) Supplier decides how

All it means is that you need to tell your client somewhat in advance of your intended holidays (If any). If your manager has a problem with it you need to agree the holidays that you can take.

It isnt high handed ness. They pay your 'business' to get your services and would need some sort of advance notice for planning. For example, naturally you cant take off during 'go live' after a year long project. Well, you can, but it is likely to be a long time off.

Absolutely :-) How would anyone feel if they got a taxi home from the pub at midnight, and the driver stopped 1/2 way, charged you for 1/2 the journey, and told you he was stopping at his friends house for a coffee, and that you should just wait 30 minutes for him to come back and collect you to finish the journey.

It is concerning that small businesses often behave disrespectfully towards their clients because they believe that being reasonable can be deemed as a pointer towards employment.

[AnthonyQuinn]

To you this just means 'Inform'

What are other contractor’s views on this heavy handed attitude by this particular individual?

All it means is that you need to tell your client somewhat in advance of your intended holidays (If any). If your manager has a problem with it you need to agree the holidays that you can take.

It isnt high handed ness. They pay your 'business' to get your services and would need some sort of advance notice for planning. For example, naturally you cant take off during 'go live' after a year long project. Well, you can, but it is likely to be a long time off.

[TheVoice]

But he who plays the pipe, actually chooses which tune to play. Or sits on here posting all day.

& of course crucially, the piper chooses how he plays the tune, call it artistic license.

In the same way, I do what the client wants task wise, but I do it my way & run my own affairs.

It seems to work well that way as I dont have my life taken over with "stuff at work" unlike millions of others.

Whether the client likes that or not I dont really care much, so long as I am adhering to the contract & providing what I *should* be there isn't an awful lot they can complain about.

[RichardCranium]

He who pays the piper, chooses the tune!!!!!!

But he who plays the pipe, actually chooses which tune to play. Or sits on here posting all day.

[Integrity]

Can you do that middle bit more simply, please? Does "No one of any contractual arrangement can afford to ignore protocols designed to maintain delivery capacity" mean that regardless of what it says in the contract, you better do it the client's way or you'll suffer?

He who pays the piper, chooses the tune!!!!!!

[expat]

I am a contractor & I understand your world. If anyone under me displayed this level of arrogance & lack of consideration for delivery I'd give them notice asap.

No one of any contractual arrangement can afford to ignore protocols designed to maintain delivery capacity. Making a unilateral decision to take time off is poisonous advice if you wish to maintain the contract.

Being IR35 compliant does not mean being a loose cannon.

Can you do that middle bit more simply, please? Does "No one of any contractual arrangement can afford to ignore protocols designed to maintain delivery capacity" mean that regardless of what it says in the contract, you better do it the client's way or you'll suffer?

[expat]

Why hire a contractor then?...
That would not be in their interest...
In my view, you hire a contractor knowing that they are a company...
If clients want people to work as staff they should employ temps....

Yes, but that doesn't affect What I Said: if the client regards you as a temp, you won't really change their mind by arguing. Your choice is rather to accept that, or not. If you won't accept it, don't expect the client to say "Gosh, you're right. Of course it would be wrong for me to attempt to treat you as an employee....". The reaction is much more likely to include phrases like "I don't need this".

[phil5476]

Yes my current client contact thinks he is working with permies (or at best, temporary staff) & not contractors, he seems to think he can rule the time people have to themselves, not realising they are a business.

Having said that this is the same client who expects contractors to fill in the "timesheet" of <their company> as well as that of the agent - no way say I - IR35...they insist the agency wont be paid but that ain't my problem so......! Plus this "timesheet" is all in german so they dont stand a chance.

Sometimes you need to keep it in the front of the clients mind that you are a company & have other affairs to attend to. Just take the time you want, let them know out of courtesy & take no notice of this guy who clearly is a permie & has no concept of our world!

I am a contractor & I understand your world. If anyone under me displayed this level of arrogance & lack of consideration for delivery I'd give them notice asap.

No one of any contractual arrangement can afford to ignore protocols designed to maintain delivery capacity. Making a unilateral decision to take time off is poisonous advice if you wish to maintain the contract.

Being IR35 compliant does not mean being a loose cannon.

[phil5476]

An email has been sent to all contractors from the “stand-in” IT manager at the client site where I also work as a contractor, "that all contractors have to seek authorization and agreement with the business before taking annual leave.....”
It is my belief that I am not a permanent or temporary member of staff and that I do not have to seek "authorization and agreement" before deciding that I want to take a day's holidays. As a business I may also have other company related issues etc. that I must carry out. Obviously I would let my line manager know that I wanted to take some holiday and if there was any problem with having the time off.
What are other contractor’s views on this heavy handed attitude by this particular individual?

Ignoring the semantics what is the practical difference between these two things Padbasher?

[TheVoice]

You need to decide: if the client thinks of you as an employee, are you prepared to work with that, or not?
It's little use insisting that you are a business and not subject to the constraints on employees, if the client is sure that you are.

Why hire a contractor then? Get a temp & pay them per hour. Or hire a permie & just make them redundant when done.

Ultimately you can act as you please but if the client finds it unacceptable then he will "fire" you. To the last, you can maintain that you haven't been fired, YourCo has had its business contract terminated. Whatever, you're still out of work.

That would not be in their interest as they would be unable to provide a service to their client.

In my view, you hire a contractor knowing that they are a company & you take on the baggage that comes with it. If clients want people to work as staff they should employ temps.

To turn an old phrase round, Contractors are only for christmas, not for life...


I should add at this point that the only German member of management over here understands how contractors work perfectly & one of the nicest people I've worked with in ages, so I have more to do with him these days as he knows what he's doing!

[expat]

Yes my current client contact thinks he is working with permies (or at best, temporary staff) & not contractors, he seems to think he can rule the time people have to themselves, not realising they are a business.

You need to decide: if the client thinks of you as an employee, are you prepared to work with that, or not? If not, what are you going to do about it? Are you prepared to accept the consequences?

It's little use insisting that you are a business and not subject to the constraints on employees, if the client is sure that you are. Ultimately you can act as you please but if the client finds it unacceptable then he will "fire" you. To the last, you can maintain that you haven't been fired, YourCo has had its business contract terminated. Whatever, you're still out of work.

[blacjac]

cool.

I think I'm clear on that one as there is no agency involved and we use the clients timesheet system to generate the reports for our invoicing (paid by the hour for T&M stuff).

[TheVoice]

How is this an IR35 pointer?

Serious question, I currently do this but never saw it as a pointer..

Well, firstly there is no relationship directly between the client & myco. As myco supply the agency & the agency supply the client. This is nothing to do with IR35 but that's another side - why fill out what hasnt been required previously & has suddenly come in - just more pointless admin.

The IR35 pointer comes in where the permies also fill out the self same timesheet, it could be taken by HMRC that you are acting within IR35 as they base it on actual practice.

The client really has no concept of IR35 - being German, who would expect them to have, well apart from the fact all their management over here are English & should know this stuff - at the outset trying to specify start/finish times, days worked, times for breaks etc, arguing the ROS clause, still not liking the fact that contractors have other clients - so this was really no surprise.

The agency also, despite recent goofups are strongly against filling out these timesheets too, as they also see it as a potential risk to IR35 status given the way this client seems to want to work.