Reply to: Spoken to Prosperity4 Administrators

[sathyaram_s]

I'm afraid, there is very little you can decide ... The agency has to agree to pay you through a different umbrella, say ..

As P4 has not received a timesheet, if the agency is co-operative you are in luck .. P4(or its administrators) can claim money from the agency only if they have your timesheet ... If they do not have your timesheet, the agency need not pay for it ...

It now turns out that they haven't actually recieved my timesheet for my first week, and won't be paying me this week anyhow!!
SO .. if they haven't actually provided me with a service yet, then they can't charge me for one , surely?? Going home to find my contract....
Anyone have any idea what the notice period might be for P4?

[scooby]

It now turns out that they haven't actually recieved my timesheet for my first week, and won't be paying me this week anyhow!!
SO .. if they haven't actually provided me with a service yet, then they can't charge me for one , surely?? Going home to find my contract....
Anyone have any idea what the notice period might be for P4?

there isnt one i believe...

[SuziQ]

It now turns out that they haven't actually recieved my timesheet for my first week, and won't be paying me this week anyhow!!
SO .. if they haven't actually provided me with a service yet, then they can't charge me for one , surely?? Going home to find my contract....
Anyone have any idea what the notice period might be for P4?

[max]

At that point in time their published accounts showed nothing like £2m in terms of retained profits, so the campaign would have been funded by using cashflow reserves (PAYE/VAT/Holiday funds retained). Evidently the ad campaign did not have the desired results as P4 took out a mortgage in January 2007, and another one just recently in July 2007 (public knowledge via Co House)

I hope they have enough to pay what they owe to HMRC...otherwise HMRC might go after P4's clients...

One positive is it's a get out of IR35 card, shows financial risk. Oh that's right...paye.

Oh what a web...

[TheFaQQer]

We look forward to your receiving your continued support of the company in this difficult time.

I bet they do!

Not sure they'll be getting it from many people, though.

[WindyAnna]

E-mail from P4 administrators

Just after posting my last post I got an e-mail from the administrators .... here's the text of it .... Windy

You should have been made aware by your respective business manager that Richard Toone, Kevin Murphy and Kenneth Touhey of Chantrey Vellacott DFK LLP were appointed Joint Administrators of the company at 10.11am on 1 August 2007.
I attach a copy of Form 2.12B - Notice of administrator’s appointment confirming our appointment.
Under the provisions of the Enterprise Act 2002, the Joint Administrators have up to eight weeks to formulate their proposals for achieving the objectives of the administration. I will write to you again with our formal proposals as soon as possible.
In the meantime, the Joint Administrators objective in the first instance will be rescuing the company as a going concern. The company will continue to trade under the control of the Joint Administrators with the assistance of the team at P 4 with a view to achieving this objective.
By way of a brief update I would advise that the Joint Administrators have continued to pay the employees of the company in accordance with their contractual terms and since the start of the Administration we have paid over 250 contractors more than £225,000 in wages. Contact has also been made with the agencies and vast majority of whom have been extremely supportive and have committed to continue working with the company.
However, in order to achieve the objective of the Administration it is essential that amounts due to the company from the agencies are paid in a timely fashion which will ensure that sufficient funds are available to continue to pay the employees.
We look forward to your receiving your continued support of the company in this difficult time.
If you do have any enquiries I should be grateful if you would, in the first instance, contact your business manager at the company. If they are unable to deal with your enquiries please telephone 020 7509 9255. This will be dealt with as soon as possible by a member of the Joint Administrators’ staff.

[WindyAnna]

In this discussion people have mentioned talking to the Administrators and talking to P4.
Who are the administrators?
I just get put through to voicemail when I try to call P4, what numbers are you using?

I've posted the full details of administrators (Chantry Vellacott) somewhere but contacts I have been given are Richard Toone, Kevin Murphy and Kenneth Touhey - Telephone no. 020 7509 9255.

[simondolan]

Last year P4 spent £2m on an ad campaign:

http://www.propaganda.co.uk/news/pre...-06/060503.php

At that point in time their published accounts showed nothing like £2m in terms of retained profits, so the campaign would have been funded by using cashflow reserves (PAYE/VAT/Holiday funds retained). Evidently the ad campaign did not have the desired results as P4 took out a mortgage in January 2007, and another one just recently in July 2007 (public knowledge via Co House)

These mortgages were secured on the assets of the Company - the debt book (or contractors work invoiced) being the main asset.

For whatever reason this finance company sound like they are calling in the debt and it remains to be seen whether P4 can pay - as the administrators have been called in I can only assume they had some trouble in doing so.

Way back in this thread it was stated by the Administrator that P4 had had a big fall-out with their finance co and I suspect this of being a factoring or invoice discounting company. I fully understand why an agency needs a factor, they pay out in a very short period and then hope to get paid by their client against a timesheet within 30 - 60 - 90 days+.

However, an umbrella company (mostly) pays their contractors on receipt of cleared funds from the agency, minus their fee, PAYE, NI (employers & employees) in P4's case 5% holiday pay retention etc. if the company were viable and solvent they should be living off their fee income and no more with PAYE NI & holiday pay in an escrow account. Why on earth did they need a finance company to cover invoices? It should be a self funding, cash generative, permanent cash rich situation.

If the finance co demanded their money back quickly they must have realised that P4 was overspending and using money that wasn't theirs to use.

Ignore profit, it cash that counts and they should be months ahead of the game in cash terms given that the effectively retain about £400+ in every thousand that goes through their account, I'm sure the Administrators can see shed loads of money in the business on paper, question is where's the cash?

[KeithRatcliff]

contacts

In this discussion people have mentioned talking to the Administrators and talking to P4.
Who are the administrators?
I just get put through to voicemail when I try to call P4, what numbers are you using?

[Splodge]

Finance company causes the problem?????

Way back in this thread it was stated by the Administrator that P4 had had a big fall-out with their finance co and I suspect this of being a factoring or invoice discounting company. I fully understand why an agency needs a factor, they pay out in a very short period and then hope to get paid by their client against a timesheet within 30 - 60 - 90 days+.

However, an umbrella company (mostly) pays their contractors on receipt of cleared funds from the agency, minus their fee, PAYE, NI (employers & employees) in P4's case 5% holiday pay retention etc. if the company were viable and solvent they should be living off their fee income and no more with PAYE NI & holiday pay in an escrow account. Why on earth did they need a finance company to cover invoices? It should be a self funding, cash generative, permanent cash rich situation.

If the finance co demanded their money back quickly they must have realised that P4 was overspending and using money that wasn't theirs to use.

Ignore profit, it cash that counts and they should be months ahead of the game in cash terms given that the effectively retain about £400+ in every thousand that goes through their account, I'm sure the Administrators can see shed loads of money in the business on paper, question is where's the cash?

[Cowboy Bob]

40p in the £ - you lucky man! I'm expecting <2p in the £ from futuro!

I effectively got 0p in the pound from a company that went bust - and I was a perm employee. I got my statutory compensation after a month or so. Then about a year later I got my cheque from the administrators. For about £10. How I laughed. I nearly had it framed.

[WindyAnna]

Absiolutely Diver, which is why it is frustrating me that other umbrellas seem to be saying that timesheets under the P4 contract can be invoiced elsewhere and they can't. I don't want to be a doomeister but it is unlikely we can get this money by any other route than P4 - if we're lucky! Umbrellas are setting unrealistic expections - somne of the agencies were as well but have obviously taken legal advice and starting to make down on paying invoices anywhere except P4.

40p in the £ - you lucky man! I'm expecting <2p in the £ from futuro!

WA

[Diver]

I originally posted this in Prosperity 4 HAVE gone in administration


The clients contract is with P4 not you.
The official reciever would prosecute them if they pay you a debt owing to P4.
And if they do pay you the official reciever can recover the moneys from you.

Got into the same situation in the early nineties and in the end got 40 pence in the pound back.
Good luck anyway

[WindyAnna]

The administrator is in a position to argue ... and will - went through all this will Futuro. Administrator threatened cleint with legal action if they did not pay for any time worked up to an including the ceasation of the contract. Legal time at client (a major organisation) inidcated that administrations were 100% in the right and therefore paid Futuro for our time, money which we will never see..

Same here, once removed from the client, even if administration is insolvency (which it isn't) then timesheets could only be invoiced elsewhere from the date that they entered that state - not retrospectively. but administration isn't insolvency, contract between P4 and agency states that "the EB may at any time without notice and without liability instruct the consultancy to cease work on the contract if the consultancy becomes insolvent, dissolved or subject to a winding up petition" - legal advice say none of these apply therefore the contract can only be terminated with due notice which is 2 weeks from yesterday. Therefore outstanding timesheets and timesheets for next two weeks have to go through P4, I can put them through another umbrella or my own limited but the agency aren't legally obliged to pay as it will be an invoice for a work done outside of any contract. If they are generous they will pay it but the administrators can and will come after them for the money to be paid to P4.

This isn't me standing by P4, I'm off, but I've been through this once this year already and I know the crack. Meanwhile a lot of other umbrellas are making statements that have no legal basis. A couple have promised me that they can raise invoices for timesheets not presented and it will be fine but when I ask them the specific question about contract dates and legality of invoices they tell me they don't know about that but that they will raise the invoices anyway - that's fine but the implication is that they'll be paid - they may or they may not. My agency has taken legal advice from REC and been told that invoices have to be paid to P4 until such time as the contract finishes. Even if the EB is prepeared to back date a contract with the new umbrella the old contract with P4 is still valid and invoices can be pursued in law.

I really hope that most people do manage to get their money by backdating with another umrella or their own limited but it wouldn't surprise me if they don't and it wouldn't surprise me if P4's administrators came after them for the money.

Windy

[beerbarrel]

The reason P4 have gone into administration is that they are unable to pay their creditors; they are insolvent.

The only way P4 can continue to trade is if the administrator can agree a scheme of arrangement with the creditors. However according to their contract that act allows either party to terminate the contract.

So any contractor who wishes to terminate their contract with P4 is now free to do so. Any time worked and not already invoiced through P4 can be invoiced through your new umbrella. You will need to get your new umbrella and agency to organise a new contract commencing on the relevant date.

Remember the administrator is not in a position to argue. You cannot afford to be the last man standing!