Reply to: So what exactly do they mean

[DodgyAgent]

That was a very very poor come back, fly the frlag properly BB

I can feel the whirling of cogs

[senditback]

Conman = agent
Conartist = agent
Contractor = good guys

That was a very very poor come back, fly the frlag properly BB

[Bluebird]

What about anyone with "Con" in their name?

Conman
Conartist
Contractor


or just simply cont

Conman = agent
Conartist = agent
Contractor = good guys

[DodgyAgent]

it does.

Have you ever noticed that anybody with the name 'agent' in the job/name should never be trusted...

employment agent
estate agent
travel agent
football agent

It seems they all have a bad [ but probably deserved ] image.

What about anyone with "Con" in their name?

Conman,
Conartist
Contractor

or just simply cont

[DodgyAgent]

I'll give it a go

I'll answer each point in turn.

What is wrong with sales? Would you want your business to be "sold" by someone who does not sell?

They don't actually sell - they just think they do, get paid as if they do, and adopt the same alleycat mentality of any genuine salesforce. At least Estate Agents actually sell houses, you sure as hell don't sell me or any other contractor, for that matter.

They do sell but you are right they are not committed to selling you they are committed to selling whoever they can to fill the role. The sales disciplines are the same.
I hardly call putting other candidates up against my CV for the same role - selling 'me' into a role - do you? As it is, the hirer sometimes gets to see my CV (usually alongside others) because you greedy charlatans sometimes take it upon yourselves to introduce me to the client because you think it will suit your own ends to do so. You certainly don't do it for me or any other contractor. The only thing you can see ahead you is pound note signs which you often see a lot more clearly than the content of the CVs you are fielding (or getting some other 'wet behind the ears' numpty to field) and put forward. As far as the real seller goes, that is me. I sell my own business to the hiring manager when I go for interview and it's off the back of that effort, my experience and skills and knowledge that the role is offered to me at all (whoops! to you). You do SFA for big bucks and a finger on a send button.

So we are greedy and you are not? and do you think the average permie thinks that you are not in contracting for the money?
Every conversation and every email that happens is a a conduit that ensures that if a contract is out there it will always be reachable by every suitable contractor without those contractors having to spend a penny on advertising or marketing their services.

You don't market my business either. I've yet to see any EB actually place adverts about my business on my behalf either for a charge or free of charge.
Regarding the EBs job ads. Half the time, the jobs don't even exist. I'm sure every contractor is delighted to waste time on the phone to EBs talking about roles that aren't even budgeted for and are unlikely to ever be. The rest of my time on the bench to EBs is spent arguing with them about IR35 clauses that they clearly have no idea about, talking about my field of expertise, that they have no idea about, talking about their job ads, they have no real comprehension of. Otherwise, its the friendly impromptu call from 'Gavin' or 'Steve' (why are they always called that?) telling me I'm perfect for the role and then asking for references upfront before they represent me for the role (which, of course, doesn't exist).


That is how the grapevine works, that keeps people like you from boring the pants off hapless hiring managersFor the all time and money and effort I've wasted on EBs, pointless interviews with clients after a free consultation, I could have spent marketing myself to clients directly - which of course, we are eternally grateful that you take off our hands for the reasons just stated...

So instead of whingeing about us and clients wasting your precious time (you pompous arse) you are perfectly free to market yourself directly (lord help em )

[I]Stop and think what would happen if there were no agencies

EBs, you mean. The world would be a better place. Period. From a certain point of view yes, however leaving sales to people like you who have no understanding of customer service let alone sales, the industry would implode.(sorry EBs I must remember to bow to the terminology that is used by our lord and masters at the DTI).

It's the legal definition and on your standard contracts and should be on the bottom of your job ads - or haven't you read them yet? No I have better things to do
The beauty of the system now is that you can use the agency grapevine and exploit it as you wish. If you do not want to use it you do not have

Why would I use a grapevine, if the information to contractors about roles was readily available to every contractor (your own words above, not mine).
We are the ones being exploited here, not you. No I don't have to use EBs and I don't for some work I get, however you DO need to have a ready supply of contractors to stay in business. Therefore, why is it that you have flatly contradicted yourself by making out you are doing us a favour and 'selling us into roles' when it is patently obvious that we, as contractors, are doing you a favour by making our availability count to give you some chance of making money from us.

I rest my case....

[George Carmen couldn't do better]

I have never claimed to do you or any other contractor a favour, I am simply saying that the industry works for the mutual benefit of contractors, agencies and clients. I hardly think anyone is going to sympathise with some spoilt prima donna on earning £500 a day (more than 99% of agents) who whines that they are being "exploited" .
There is only one thing that you and George Carmen should have in common

[DodgyAgent]

You are sexist and this remark is unacceptable and breaches the forum rules that disallows personally insulting remarks on discriminatory grounds - in this case 'gender' discrimination.

You must be a member of a victim community, are you contracting at the BBC by any chance? and why do you assume that my understanding of the word "period" is any different to yours?

[Bluebird]

Denny, I just think he couldn't put forward a sufficient arguement against you sort resorted to petty insults.

If he was worth anything he would at least join the discussion and enlighten us all on why he thinks your points rea not valid - in his view.

His remark, just goes to further substansiate the general view of agents on these boards.

He is a crdit to his profession.

[Denny]

I think that the most telling word to describe this jumbled diatribe was your word "period"

You are sexist and this remark is unacceptable and breaches the forum rules that disallows personally insulting remarks on discriminatory grounds - in this case 'gender' discrimination.

[DodgyAgent]

I'll answer each point in turn.

What is wrong with sales? Would you want your business to be "sold" by someone who does not sell?

They don't actually sell - they just think they do, get paid as if they do, and adopt the same alleycat mentality of any genuine salesforce. At least Estate Agents actually sell houses, you sure as hell don't sell me or any other contractor, for that matter.

I hardly call putting other candidates up against my CV for the same role - selling 'me' into a role - do you? As it is, the hirer sometimes gets to see my CV (usually alongside others) because you greedy charlatans sometimes take it upon yourselves to introduce me to the client because you think it will suit your own ends to do so. You certainly don't do it for me or any other contractor. The only thing you can see ahead you is pound note signs which you often see a lot more clearly than the content of the CVs you are fielding (or getting some other 'wet behind the ears' numpty to field) and put forward. As far as the real seller goes, that is me. I sell my own business to the hiring manager when I go for interview and it's off the back of that effort, my experience and skills and knowledge that the role is offered to me at all (whoops! to you). You do SFA for big bucks and a finger on a send button.

Every conversation and every email that happens is a a conduit that ensures that if a contract is out there it will always be reachable by every suitable contractor without those contractors having to spend a penny on advertising or marketing their services.

You don't market my business either. I've yet to see any EB actually place adverts about my business on my behalf either for a charge or free of charge.
Regarding the EBs job ads. Half the time, the jobs don't even exist. I'm sure every contractor is delighted to waste time on the phone to EBs talking about roles that aren't even budgeted for and are unlikely to ever be. The rest of my time on the bench to EBs is spent arguing with them about IR35 clauses that they clearly have no idea about, talking about my field of expertise, that they have no idea about, talking about their job ads, they have no real comprehension of. Otherwise, its the friendly impromptu call from 'Gavin' or 'Steve' (why are they always called that?) telling me I'm perfect for the role and then asking for references upfront before they represent me for the role (which, of course, doesn't exist).

For the all time and money and effort I've wasted on EBs, pointless interviews with clients after a free consultation, I could have spent marketing myself to clients directly - which of course, we are eternally grateful that you take off our hands for the reasons just stated...

[I]Stop and think what would happen if there were no agencies

EBs, you mean. The world would be a better place. Period.

(sorry EBs I must remember to bow to the terminology that is used by our lord and masters at the DTI).

It's the legal definition and on your standard contracts and should be on the bottom of your job ads - or haven't you read them yet?

The beauty of the system now is that you can use the agency grapevine and exploit it as you wish. If you do not want to use it you do not have

Why would I use a grapevine, if the information to contractors about roles was readily available to every contractor (your own words above, not mine).
We are the ones being exploited here, not you. No I don't have to use EBs and I don't for some work I get, however you DO need to have a ready supply of contractors to stay in business. Therefore, why is it that you have flatly contradicted yourself by making out you are doing us a favour and 'selling us into roles' when it is patently obvious that we, as contractors, are doing you a favour by making our availability count to give you some chance of making money from us.

I rest my case....

[George Carmen couldn't do better]

I think that the most telling word to describe this jumbled diatribe was your word "period"

[Denny]

FFS what are they supposed to do? If you think about it the whole IT contractor market works incredibly efficiently. Information about the right job for the right contractor finds its way quite miraculously through the many communication activities that happen on a day to day basis within our industry.

Every conversation and every email that happens is a a conduit that ensures that if a contract is out there it will always be reachable by every suitable contractor without those contractors having to spend a penny on advertising or marketing their services.

Stop and think what would happen if there were no agencies (sorry EBs I must remember to bow to the terminology that is used by our lord and masters at the DTI). Each one of you would be spending huge amounts of time on the telephone trying to hustle business for yourselves. Or the pointys who believe that everything can be done using technology - sorry it cannot.

The beauty of the system now is that you can use the agency grapevine and exploit it as you wish. If you do not want to use it you do not have to.

I'll answer each point in turn.

What is wrong with sales? Would you want your business to be "sold" by someone who does not sell?

They don't actually sell - they just think they do, get paid as if they do, and adopt the same alleycat mentality of any genuine salesforce. At least Estate Agents actually sell houses, you sure as hell don't sell me or any other contractor, for that matter.

I hardly call putting other candidates up against my CV for the same role - selling 'me' into a role - do you? As it is, the hirer sometimes gets to see my CV (usually alongside others) because you greedy charlatans sometimes take it upon yourselves to introduce me to the client because you think it will suit your own ends to do so. You certainly don't do it for me or any other contractor. The only thing you can see ahead you is pound note signs which you often see a lot more clearly than the content of the CVs you are fielding (or getting some other 'wet behind the ears' numpty to field) and put forward. As far as the real seller goes, that is me. I sell my own business to the hiring manager when I go for interview and it's off the back of that effort, my experience and skills and knowledge that the role is offered to me at all (whoops! to you). You do SFA for big bucks and a finger on a send button.

Every conversation and every email that happens is a a conduit that ensures that if a contract is out there it will always be reachable by every suitable contractor without those contractors having to spend a penny on advertising or marketing their services.

You don't market my business either. I've yet to see any EB actually place adverts about my business on my behalf either for a charge or free of charge.
Regarding the EBs job ads. Half the time, the jobs don't even exist. I'm sure every contractor is delighted to waste time on the phone to EBs talking about roles that aren't even budgeted for and are unlikely to ever be. The rest of my time on the bench to EBs is spent arguing with them about IR35 clauses that they clearly have no idea about, talking about my field of expertise, that they have no idea about, talking about their job ads, they have no real comprehension of. Otherwise, its the friendly impromptu call from 'Gavin' or 'Steve' (why are they always called that?) telling me I'm perfect for the role and then asking for references upfront before they represent me for the role (which, of course, doesn't exist).

For the all time and money and effort I've wasted on EBs, pointless interviews with clients after a free consultation, I could have spent marketing myself to clients directly - which of course, we are eternally grateful that you take off our hands for the reasons just stated...

[I]Stop and think what would happen if there were no agencies

EBs, you mean. The world would be a better place. Period.

(sorry EBs I must remember to bow to the terminology that is used by our lord and masters at the DTI).

It's the legal definition and on your standard contracts and should be on the bottom of your job ads - or haven't you read them yet?

The beauty of the system now is that you can use the agency grapevine and exploit it as you wish. If you do not want to use it you do not have

Why would I use a grapevine, if the information to contractors about roles was readily available to every contractor (your own words above, not mine).
We are the ones being exploited here, not you. No I don't have to use EBs and I don't for some work I get, however you DO need to have a ready supply of contractors to stay in business. Therefore, why is it that you have flatly contradicted yourself by making out you are doing us a favour and 'selling us into roles' when it is patently obvious that we, as contractors, are doing you a favour by making our availability count to give you some chance of making money from us.

I rest my case....

[George Carmen couldn't do better]

[DodgyAgent]

Recruiters dealing with contractors not our agents though.

All the above have one thing in common - SALES.

That is what is wrong and what they all have in common.

What is wrong with sales? Would you want your business to be "sold" by someone who does not sell? FFS what are they supposed to do? If you think about it the whole IT contractor market works incredibly efficiently. Information about the right job for the right contractor finds its way quite miraculously through the many communication activities that happen on a day to day basis within our industry.

Every conversation and every email that happens is a a conduit that ensures that if a contract is out there it will always be reachable by every suitable contractor without those contractors having to spend a penny on advertising or marketing their services.

Stop and think what would happen if there were no agencies (sorry EBs I must remember to bow to the terminology that is used by our lord and masters at the DTI). Each one of you would be spending huge amounts of time on the telephone trying to hustle business for yourselves. Or the pointys who believe that everything can be done using technology - sorry it cannot.

The beauty of the system now is that you can use the agency grapevine and exploit it as you wish. If you do not want to use it you do not have to.

[Denny]

it does.

Have you ever noticed that anybody with the name 'agent' in the job/name should never be trusted...

employment agent
estate agent
travel agent
football agent

It seems they all have a bad [ but probably deserved ] image.

Recruiters dealing with contractors not our agents though.

All the above have one thing in common - SALES.

That is what is wrong and what they all have in common.

[senditback]

Denny I agree with the your thread whole heartedly apart from this one issue.

They can't and don't. That's why they're a complete waste of time.

Generally Ebs / agents are a complete waste of time, they don't know me, they don't know me, they don't know anything about what I do and they don't know the client. Hence they are unable to tell me anything about the gig at all apart from rate, location and duration.

However this is a representation of the sh@t agents / resourcers. As I said earlier I have always used EBS, I have never had a direct contract before. The consultant I use does not work gigs where he isn't in direct contact with the manager but some of his colleagues will work the positions

it's just a case of working with the right individual. Which generally means when your called by one of the big boys - just hang up, but if you come across a good one stick to them (but not too closely).

massive company, just ha

[Lockhouse]

I've got 15 years investment banking experience. Unfortunately it's the same 6 month's experience 30 times over....

[Bluebird]

it does.

Have you ever noticed that anybody with the name 'agent' in the job/name should never be trusted...

employment agent
estate agent
travel agent
football agent

It seems they all have a bad [ but probably deserved ] image.