Reply to: Attracting web-site traffic

Re: Lost Argument

> Obviously Russians have a different definition of the
> words 'Argument' and 'Lost'.

We don't have the L word in our vocabulary

> You obviously have some experience in online marketing.

yeah, you can say that

> I have experience of both approaches and if I could show
> my clients that online marketing was the cost effective way
> to go then I would reccomend it every time.

i am active pro-proponent of ecommerce however I do recognize role of offline things that can be made more powerful by being linked to online media.

Re: Lost Argument

Obviously Russians have a different definition of the words 'Argument' and 'Lost'.

Here we would call this a discussion on the merits of two marketing methods. Both positions include online and offline advertising as valid methods, just different weightings.

You obviously have some experience in online marketing.
I have experience of both approaches and if I could show my clients that online marketing was the cost effective way to go then I would reccomend it every time. You see that way I could sell most of them a website, hosting and on-going online marketing where I (rather than the cinema) would make most of the profit too!

Re: Re : original discussions

well, I was not trying to suggest that local high street takeaway will benefit most from Google's adwords!!! Obviousyl there are limits to where its applicable! It seems to me that yuo are dealing with this sort of people, so your point of view does seem to be justified. However, I am personally convinced that almost every business can benefit from proper ecommerce strategy

peace

p.s. since you've clearly lost this argument on all points you do owe me a few good bottles of beer from Germany, I will pick it in Brum or Wolves at time of your choosing but not exceeding 3 months

Re : original discussions

Well, we do seem to have gone of track a bit - hope the discussion has been entertaining to the lurkers, they probably ignored the thread long ago

Anyway, for a new, small, locally based website I still hold to the opinion, backed by experience with real small businesses, that offline offers a better bang for your buck.

So do many others:
www.maniactive.com/offlin...tising.htm
advertising.about.com/lib...21100a.htm
www.drnunley.com/ARTCL35.htm
www.findmyhosting.com/web...ffline.htm
oh, and Google too:
www.google.com/jobs/marke...#intl_spec

As for Google's technology, if you are really interested - go here www-db.stanford.edu/~backrub/google.html

Re: Re: Re; Success

ok, if its a small business with just one incoming client source - cinema then its all nice and easy. However, discussion in question focussed around WEB SITE. Web sites can have many different streams of visitors, be it search engine, email marketing, affiliates, articles, posts in news groups etc. The example that you've given does not fit that profile at all -- you are using simple company of your client that does not have problem of managing multiple mediums effectively.

> When the campaign runs, we will calculate ROI, then we
> will know. One thing we DO know is that you CANNOT
> accurately target the audience with a search engine.

As I said -- you are lucky you are dealing with just one event happening. Good for you.

> I quote from my earlier note "is strictly controlled in both
> law and by industry regulatory bodies such as the ASA."

being anti-online is not against the law, and it also does not break any ASA regulations. Most of old gits from the old economy are totally anti-online. The best they can do is to have a brochureware website and thats as far as most of them go. This is another story however.

> Finding the reference.

Thanks for the link, I have emailed it to my work address ( dont read this board from work), and I will make sure its distributed to appropriate people. I will withhold judgement on whether its correct or not, but one thing that I know is that PageRank from Google is propriatory and this article is a good guess at best.

> However, bear in mind that the internet adult industry is
> consitently profitable across the board before you claim
> they don't know what they are doing.

ah, urban myth. A friend of mine from States used to run a series of xxx websites from about 1997, he quit that a few years ago because revenues dropped to ridiculous levels. Many of existing sites are scams designed to ... scam.

Online porn is very fragmented consisting of very small private places often run by students who dont report any revenues _anywhere_. Most peple who pay for online porn dont exactly report that as well.

I am personally convinced that a good deal of alleged profits of adult oriented sites online are due to blatant scams with "free registrations" and small print that allows them to bill you 39.99 a month and its impossible to cancel it easily. "Success" of adult sites is often based on innovative techniques to fool Google and other search engines to get better positioning for a SHORT TIME. These techniques, sometimes very effective, all end up badly. Luckily for porn companies they don to care about customer satisfaction, attrition -- they just create new website and start it all over.

Successful? Possibly.

Replicateable for other online businesses? I think not.

Re: Re: Re; Success

>Your business must be primitive.....

It is NOT my business, it is a client. It is quite simple, yes as are most SMALL businesses in this country, two owners and a few part time staff selling a single service from a single (soon to be two) location is NOT hugely complicated. Even given this there are several influencing factors seasonal variations for example, that is why you have to allow for them when counting your sales. If you want to know HOW to isolate them, visit amazon.co.uk and buy a book.

When the campaign runs, we will calculate ROI, then we will know. One thing we DO know is that you CANNOT accurately target the audience with a search engine.

>these people are anti-online
I quote from my earlier note "is strictly controlled in both law and by industry regulatory bodies such as the ASA."

> Finding the reference.
its www.adultwebmasterconsult...rithm.html
You may not wish to click the link from work.
However, bear in mind that the internet adult industry is consitently profitable across the board before you claim they don't know what they are doing.

Re: Rek, and how do you measure success of that then?

> What you do to measure the campaign is quite simple, you
> measure the sales BEFORE the ad runs, then you
> measure the sales AFTER the ad runs. I assume you knew
> this and were attempting sarcasm?

:rollin

your business must be so primitive that there is one influencing factor - your ad. Try that in real business where there are multiple revenue streams, with 100s of places that send customers to you!!! Once you actually start comparing ROI, you might find that your cinema ads are not that great - comparatively.

> Due to the nature of the business it is very easy to
> determine unique new customers, you can simply measure
> the number of these before and after, and then compare the
> sales trend to new customers before and after. Of course
> you need to factor in known seasonal fluctuations.

well, you have it easy. I worked for busienss where you'd have on and off line sales with on and offline ads, affiliates, stores etc all of which would affect sales in a very peculiar manner. This requires somewhat better methodology than just look at increase in sales before and after.


> Yes. So do Pearl & Dean, The Cinema Advertising Agency,
> Carlton Screen Advertising and The Cinema Advertising
> Association.

These people are anti-online, they have vested interest - as you said - in cinemas. They dont do detailed comparisons with google, they jsut fund "independent" researchs to show your sales increase.

> Given where it comes from he may NOT wish to post the
> address, especially if he is on a client site.

he can post it from home, if its publicly available info like you suggested then its okay to post it I guess?

Rek, and how do you measure success of that then?

>ok, and how do you measure success of that then?
Cannot measure it yet. The models are not even booked for the picture yet.

What you do to measure the campaign is quite simple, you measure the sales BEFORE the ad runs, then you measure the sales AFTER the ad runs. I assume you knew this and were attempting sarcasm?

Due to the nature of the business it is very easy to determine unique new customers, you can simply measure the number of these before and after, and then compare the sales trend to new customers before and after. Of course you need to factor in known seasonal fluctuations.

>Do you have hard facts about sales that this ads will >provide?

Yes. So do Pearl & Dean, The Cinema Advertising Agency, Carlton Screen Advertising and The Cinema Advertising Association. Yes, they have a vested interest in providing this information and making it good. However, unlike much(although not all) internet-based advertising the information is verified by independant ratings organisations such as Nielsen ratings and independant market researchers and is strictly controlled in both law and by industry regulatory bodies such as the ASA. There is also much independant marketing information available from magazines and websites. It is valuable, so you have to pay for it, invest in some!

>I like to give people chance to provide reference to what they say ok?

Given where it comes from he may NOT wish to post the address, especially if he is on a client site.

Re: Reference

SEO (search engine opts) is not my main speciality, where did I say I was expert at it? I asked for reference because I know that PageRank is closely guarded secret of Google and I was curious to where this info came from.

The reason I commented in the first place is because I do know Google's opts do work, however, I was not trying to present myself as a person who knows HOW to do that, I just said WHAT needs to be done.

> took me about 3 seconds to find out the reference for this
> particular info using Google.

I like to give people chance to provide reference to what they say ok?


> Just to let you know, for my latest client we decided to
> purchase 35mm slide advertising for 'U' rated films at two
> local cinemas. This targets the desired audience pretty
> much exactly, much better than could EVER be achieved
> by buying adwords from Google.

ok, and how do you measure success of that then? Do you have hard facts about sales that this ads will provide?

Re: Reference

AtW,

I'm back. I can strongly recommend Dortmunder Union Export as a premium 'Loopy Juice'.

Just to let you know, for my latest client we decided to purchase 35mm slide advertising for 'U' rated films at two local cinemas. This targets the desired audience pretty much exactly, much better than could EVER be achieved by buying adwords from Google.

As for the search engine ranking algorithms - I thought YOU were supposed to be an expert, why do you need to look up references for such information? These results were obtained by reverse engineering to an approximation of the algorithms from known rankings.

Obviously you have not invested in a copy of 'Using Search Engines for Dummies', took me about 3 seconds to find out the reference for this particular info using Google.

Re: West Midlands

Liam, where did you dig this info from? AFAIK PageRank is a strictly kept secret, and no one knows how exactly it works, especially with detailed %-tage breakdown as you have provided. Care to give reference?

Re: West Midlands

if this is of any help

Google-Enabled Attribute Importance

Link Popularity - Links from other sites- Link and surrounding
text analysis&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 35%

Title- <TITLE>Keyword Phrase</TITLE>&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 25%

URL & File Name - keyword.url.com/- www.keyword.co.uk/- url.tv/keyword_phrase.html 10%

Heading Tags- <H1>Keyword Phrase</H1>- <H2>Ancillary Phrase</H2>&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 10%

Body Text&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 8%

Images- ALT text- File name&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 7%

On-Page Link Analysis - Link URL and file names- Link text (if text link)- Link ALT text (if image link)&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 5%
Total Algorithm Score:&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 100%

Re: West Midlands

Do some research into what people would search for to get to your site or your competitors site

Simply optimise you web pages for google, to start use title tags and have your main keywords at the start of the tag.

go to a SEO forum, you can learn many useful tips at these sites and it will cost nothing, once you are in the top.5 for a search in google you will see the traffic come rushing in.

Re: West Midlands

yeah I thought you were sarcastic -- its harder to detect British sarcasm in writing than in person

sorry

Re: West Midlands

"I dont feel like fighting anyone recently" ??????

i don't know what you mean. i said that i thought your observation was a good one and then asked for your ideas on advertising. i think maybe you've taken it the wrong way?