Reply to: KPMG - Enforced Leave (2017-18 edition)

[billybiro]

Errrrrm, not when those interactions lead to further profitable business, surely?

Or maybe you don't mix with MDs etc. who hold the purse strings.
I have made a lot of money by having the occasional pint with permanent staff.

One of these drinks led to bringing in a team of 8 contractors (who I largely cherry picked) which has led to repeat business for at least 4 of them.

Still, each to their own.

Yes, however, there's a world of difference between a more formal, if somewhat relaxed "business meeting" - even over a quiet pint in the local - with those small numbers of client staff who are decision makers and the bawdy, p*ssed-up all night drinking/karaoke/strip-club sessions with the entire collective of shop floor workers that the average office "xmas do" degenerates into.

By all means, use the former to gain more business. I was clearly talking about the latter, which as contractor, you should avoid at all costs.

[MrMarkyMark]

And this is a very good thing. You're not a permie. Your only interaction with them should be as part of the duties of delivery of that which you're contracted to do. Outside of this, you stay as far away as possible, and you most certainly don't go anywhere near any kind of extra curricular, out-of-the-office parties, do's, events etc.

No wonder HMRC want to treat us all like employees if we've got contractors fraternising with staff outside of office location and hours.

Errrrrm, not when those interactions lead to further profitable business, surely?

Or maybe you don't mix with MDs etc. who hold the purse strings.
I have made a lot of money by having the occasional pint with permanent staff.

One of these drinks led to bringing in a team of 8 contractors (who I largely cherry picked) which has led to repeat business for at least 4 of them.

Still, each to their own.

[billybiro]

One previous client simply didn't invite contractors and temps at all.

And this is a very good thing. You're not a permie. Your only interaction with them should be as part of the duties of delivery of that which you're contracted to do. Outside of this, you stay as far away as possible, and you most certainly don't go anywhere near any kind of extra curricular, out-of-the-office parties, do's, events etc.

No wonder HMRC want to treat us all like employees if we've got contractors fraternising with staff outside of office location and hours.

[boxingbantz]

If your contract finishes on 22nd Dec, then you'll probably be taking time off in January instead.

Thankfully it ends in April so I'm sure I'll be fine.

[LondonManc]

Cracks me up people complaining over forced leave over Christmas. It's one of the first things I do when taking on a gig, letting them know I'll be taking a break over Christmas. I'm finishing on the 14th where the rest of the company is mostly working through until Friday 22nd.

If your contract finishes on 22nd Dec, then you'll probably be taking time off in January instead.

[boxingbantz]

Cracks me up people complaining over forced leave over Christmas. It's one of the first things I do when taking on a gig, letting them know I'll be taking a break over Christmas. I'm finishing on the 14th where the rest of the company is mostly working through until Friday 22nd.

[SueEllen]

Attending my clientco’s Christmas part is £48.50 + VAT for contractors and temp staff.

I don’t think they want us there either.

At least you are allowed to pay to go.

One previous client simply didn't invite contractors and temps at all.

Their permie staff complaint and half of them didn't turn up. They pointed out due to up to three quarters of their departments being contractors they didn't know other people. In the department I was working in we ended up having our own Christmas Party.

[BackupBoy]

They just don't want you at the Christmas party.

Attending my clientco’s Christmas part is £48.50 + VAT for contractors and temp staff.

I don’t think they want us there either.

[LondonManc]

Dont people ask during the interview, you know, that bit where they say 'do you have any questions?' whether there would be a Christmas shut down if so, how long?

Seeing as you are talking KPMG, Id have thought the big projects they are working on for TSB it would be something people should be aware of?

This really isnt something new in contracting, its been going on for the best part of 20 years albeit becoming more popular as a way to save money.

At the very least, lots of places close from around 20 December to end of first week in the New Year so, it can hardly be called a 30% rate cut if starting a week earlier.

+1

Back in my permie days, I've worked at a couple of places that closed down Christmas week. You'd work a full day Christmas Eve and reality is that your department director would walk the floor, shake your hand and wish you a Merry Christmas and you'd be over the road for a team pint at 2:30 (tradition dictated that you were to stay for one and obliged to do so - leaving at 3pm after a free pint from your boss beats finishing at 5pm anyway). You'd then be back in on the 2nd and have to book 3 days off out of the 30 (usually it was 28 but this place did the 30 because of the Christmas shutdown).

As you say, these days furloughs and Christmas shutdowns are used for cost-saving measures to boost end of year figures. I generally want Christmas week off so taking an extra week off that I have no say over saves me wondering about having extra time off. Four weeks at short notice extracts the urine somewhat though.

[SueEllen]

Dont people ask during the interview, you know, that bit where they say 'do you have any questions?' whether there would be a Christmas shut down if so, how long?

I have.

I was so disappointed that one potential client didn't have a Xmas furlong I took another contract.

[washed up contractor]

Manifests as a 20% rate cut over a 3 month contract. Not only that but I like to be the one deciding if/when I take breaks not the end client.

Dont people ask during the interview, you know, that bit where they say 'do you have any questions?' whether there would be a Christmas shut down if so, how long?

Seeing as you are talking KPMG, Id have thought the big projects they are working on for TSB it would be something people should be aware of?

This really isnt something new in contracting, its been going on for the best part of 20 years albeit becoming more popular as a way to save money.

At the very least, lots of places close from around 20 December to end of first week in the New Year so, it can hardly be called a 30% rate cut if starting a week earlier.

[oilboil]

From years of working in an equivalent to KPMG I can say with some knowledge that the entire business model of these companies is helped by encouraging staff to work non-stop through out the year and then have loads of time in the holiday bank over Christmas - clients say no-one on site so company encourages you to take the time or lose it...

To make sure people don't carry it forward (as usually you can argue some reasons why you couldn't use it all) they save up piles of really awful stuff for the poor saps in the office over the period, and chase you mercilessly over November to make sure you book the holiday

[MrMarkyMark]

They just don't want you at the Christmas party.

He's so fat and lazy, can you blame them

[northernladyuk]

My current clientco has issued a furlough for the entire December.

Perks of contracting, cant wait for it.

They just don't want you at the Christmas party.

[LondonManc]

This is what gets tiring about everyone saying everyone else is inside IR35 on this forum - D&C is only one of the three pillars, legally speaking if you can prove one of the other two (lack of MoO or substitution), it doesn't matter how much D&C you're under - which is why QDOS can offer to cover you for tens of thousands of pounds of potential tax/NI owed for a few hundred quid a year - they know how to win in court

Absolutely correct. It's when it becomes all three that you have to prove that you're going to come unstuck. If you're a specialist of any sort you're generally fine. If you're able to send someone in and prove it's not a sham clause, you're fine. That's why I think in IT that more junior contractors are at risk - particularly PMO team and generic younger BAs with no SME knowledge.