Reply to: Contracting in Poland

[cntl1]

Interesting points here about the perception of foreigners in the workplace and as a foreigner working abroad I can see your point but I don't fully agree. The countries you mention (China, Poland and UK) of have varying languages and cultures and if you don't fit in as well as a local then it can work against you in business (especially so in China from what I understand). The US when I am now is easier than other countries I have lived in before (in Africa & Middle East) as the culture is broadcast around the world and although there are local differences but it's not that hard to pick up on conversations people are having no matter where they are from over here.

I am sure you have heard the saying it's not what you know but who you know before. I am younger than you but the glaze of talent working its way to the top of organisations wore off on me not long after I left university. The ones that climb up to the top of companies are the ones who know who to network with (i.e. those who influence decisions in the organisation) and also make those same people look good by helping them structure and support their initiatives.

You are right, it is a combination of factors, it's not as if this country was full of prejudiced bigots, far from it. I found folks here generally friendly to foreigners, by folks I meant the more educated, intelligent ones (and I found the more successful, "higher up" someone is, the more open they are). If they discriminate against Johny-the-foreigner it is usually not due to xenophobia but rather the concerns you raised, like fitting in with the local culture, networking, etc.

I found the middle and lower management folks more often creating the glass ceiling for the foreigner than the higher up's.

[redgiant]

Always a possibility, but I doubt it. I worked with the Chinese guy in Beijing during a stop on my globetrotting tour. There was an option to stay in China and do perm work for his company, and I was invited but declined. I really don't like China, for many reasons.

I know him pretty well, he is one of very few people I call "friends" and he has had the same issues in the UK before he left for China. This is a common pattern, if you read Polish sites you will see this.

The Polish girl, well she could not even get a job in IT during her decade long life in UK despite having a postgraduate engineering degree from a top tier Polish university. Ended up selling motorbikes. I suggested she did an OU degree in IT and mentored her a few times. Last time I knew, she was sent to manage a project in Dubai for a company in Warsaw she works for.

I am level headed enough to realistically know my limitations. I get offers all the time for perm jobs, a good validation for me against self-delusion. And I wouldn't have gotten to the top of the IT chain at a major British manufacturer for 8 years if I didn't know what I was doing, or be able to afford to see more of the world than 99% of folks out there.

The truth is folks can get further up the chain in their own country. On average, there are exceptions.

Let me add that in my younger years I really bought into this crap that talent determines your success. But since then I've became more of a cynic, I've just seen too much discrimination, xenophobia against foreigners. Not against myself, I was pretty lucky in that respect, but for many of the people I knew.

Interesting points here about the perception of foreigners in the workplace and as a foreigner working abroad I can see your point but I don't fully agree. The countries you mention (China, Poland and UK) of have varying languages and cultures and if you don't fit in as well as a local then it can work against you in business (especially so in China from what I understand). The US when I am now is easier than other countries I have lived in before (in Africa & Middle East) as the culture is broadcast around the world and although there are local differences it's not that hard to pick up on conversations people are having no matter where they are from over here.

I am sure you have heard the saying it's not what you know but who you know before. I am younger than you but the glaze of talent working its way to the top of organisations wore off on me not long after I left university. The ones that climb up to the top of companies are the ones who know who to network with (i.e. those who influence decisions in the organisation) and also make those same people look good by helping them structure and support their initiatives.

[MrMarkyMark]

Well, that probably would be a fair take on it. Can be seen as a positive in some roles, I guess. Anyway, I am just shooting in the dark. I am going to do a more targeted run with the overseas agents, see what happens. I did send my CV earlier to 2 or 3 agents in Poland for perm roles, sort of on a whim, and I got a very good response.. This made me think I could shift my contract hunt to that part of Europe, since I am not particularly tied in at the moment. May be an easier way for me to get started.

You might want to look at roles out there and see if a multi targeted approach may be better.

[cntl1]

Ah fair .

Hmmmm....along those lines, is there a danger that your CV may be coming over as a jack of all Trades?

Well, that probably would be a fair take on it. Can be seen as a positive in some roles, I guess. Anyway, I am just shooting in the dark. I am going to do a more targeted run with the overseas agents, see what happens. I did send my CV earlier to 2 or 3 agents in Poland for perm roles, sort of on a whim, and I got a very good response.. This made me think I could shift my contract hunt to that part of Europe, since I am not particularly tied in at the moment. May be an easier way for me to get started.

EDIT: Having said that, I think I fall more into the SQL Developer bracket rather than DBA, as this is where I spent most of my time as far as SQL work goes.

[MrMarkyMark]

Yes, I was the only SQL server admin in the company, at least in that subsidiary.

Ah fair .

Hmmmm....along those lines, is there a danger that your CV may be coming over as a jack of all Trades?

[cntl1]

Does that include DBA duties, specifically, though?

Yes, I was the only SQL server admin in the company, at least in that subsidiary which had its own SQL server setup and run the ERP on a separate server. I was the admin for both.

EDIT: my official job title was IT manager, but it oscillated between SQL admin duties, tsql development (I've done several hundred customizations), to desktop app development and their full integration with ERP, to web apps development and their full integration with the ERP. The ERP system was WinMan www.winman.com

[MrMarkyMark]

350 euro per day in Poland will definitely go further than 500gbp in England. However, if you have to spend it in the UK, then you are right, not worth it, although it's possible the £ will fall under 1 euro once A50 is triggered, so the situation may be different then.

Your post actually made me think that I should test the waters on the continent, particularly in places like Poland to get me started on the contracting front. If you feel like it, and since I speak reasonable Polish, you can send me a PM with the agent details. I was at the top of the chain working with SQL Server based ERP system for a manufacturer here, done tons of SQL work for them, if you think that fits the bill of course.

Does that include DBA duties, specifically, though?

[cntl1]

Having talked to the agent I've lost interest in this one, after several attempts to get me to name a rate and me saying I'd need some time for research they finally said they had a range of 300-350 euros, so that's me out. Even if it's dirt cheap in Poland 90% of my money goes on the wife and kids.

It would be nice to have a summary somewhere for each country listing things to take account of though.

350 euro per day in Poland will definitely go further than 500gbp in England. However, if you have to spend it in the UK, then you are right, not worth it, although it's possible the £ will fall under 1 euro once A50 is triggered, so the situation may be different then.

Your post actually made me think that I should test the waters on the continent, particularly in places like Poland to get me started on the contracting front. If you feel like it, and since I speak reasonable Polish, you can send me a PM with the agent details. I was at the top of the chain working with SQL Server based ERP system for a manufacturer here, done tons of SQL work for them, if you think that fits the bill of course.

[cntl1]

Maybe they're just better at their jobs than you are.

Always a possibility, but I doubt it. I worked with the Chinese guy in Beijing during a stop on my globetrotting tour. There was an option to stay in China and do perm work for his company, and I was invited but declined. I really don't like China, for many reasons.

I know him pretty well, he is one of very few people I call "friends" and he has had the same issues in the UK before he left for China. This is a common pattern, if you read Polish sites you will see this.

The Polish girl, well she could not even get a job in IT during her decade long life in UK despite having a postgraduate engineering degree from a top tier Polish university. Ended up selling motorbikes. I suggested she did an OU degree in IT and mentored her a few times. Last time I knew, she was sent to manage a project in Dubai for a company in Warsaw she works for.

I am level headed enough to realistically know my limitations. I get offers all the time for perm jobs, a good validation for me against self-delusion. And I wouldn't have gotten to the top of the IT chain at a major British manufacturer for 8 years if I didn't know what I was doing, or be able to afford to see more of the world than 99% of folks out there.

The truth is folks can get further up the chain in their own country. On average, there are exceptions.

Let me add that in my younger years I really bought into this crap that talent determines your success. But since then I've became more of a cynic, I've just seen too much discrimination, xenophobia against foreigners. Not against myself, I was pretty lucky in that respect, but for many of the people I knew.

[FrontEnder]

I've seen the same thing with my Chinese friends (Mrs cntl is Chinese). Mrs did her postgrad here in the UK with folks from her home town who returned to China after graduation. They have very high positions at their respective companies, one is just below the CEO (whatever the term is) and would laugh at me if he knew what I made here. Folks born here may not appreciate the head-start that gives. I am not complaining, actually, that's just a fact of life everywhere.

Maybe they're just better at their jobs than you are.

[cntl1]

The country has also lurched backwards with right-wing attitudes now prevalent and anti-EU rhetoric

Kinda similar to what's happening here

[dundeedude]

Warsaw is probably the place to be. I would avoid Gdansk and Krakow as they are simply too dull for staying longer than a month.

Cheap and decent apartments are available. Sector of work wasn't mentioned, but with the American oil companies, under the guise of local companies with obscure titles, pulling out of the land-rig gas exploration, I doubt you'll see many decent rates in Warsaw for a while.

€350/day would still allow you a decent lifestyle over there, but if you have a family back in England then you'd be wanting at least €500 a day I would suggest. Keep in mind GBP exchange rates now, which mean that's not far off a reasonable average rate in England. Also, flights from Warsaw to the UK are historically extremely cheap right now, with local Polish carriers now flying direct to Edinburgh, Glasgow, Manchester and the like. Wizz-Air flights could mean it's not hard to do a weekly stint over there.

Until the country further develops I would personally not go back, as the rates are no longer high enough to justify it. But for a single young male it would be a blast - female, perhaps not so: polish women are quite open and many are highly educated = good chat. I found that most Polish professional men embody old British attitudes of yesteryear, with attitudes to women being old fashioned and xenophobia and racism rife. The country has also lurched backwards with right-wing attitudes now prevalent and anti-EU rhetoric. It was EU membership which actually brought the possibility of equal pay for women forward many decades, although it still lags way behind the rest of the EU.

[BigRed]

You didn't mention what type of job it is you'd be doing there? I think this is crucial to really make sense of the rates you've quoted. This is not too far off from the lower end of the contracting spectrum over here, tbh, I've certainly seen some contracting posts on Reed and the like at £300 per day. So it would help to know if we are comparing apples to oranges or not.

SQL Server DBA FWIW, but the point to me is that I can easily achieve those sorts of rates in the UK and 90% of my costs are fixed because the wife and children will still be in the UK. Even if it was free accommodation and food it wouldn't make the travelling worthwhile. If I was single and no commitments it would make more sense and be nice to live in a different country but as it stands it's a waste of time.

[Eirikur]

You have to be invited by a company to fullfill a role, in that case you can charge normal rates and set demands on providing housing and travel cost etc, by applying yourself on the jobboards you have to comply with the local rates and salaries (At least this is how it worked when I contracted in Ukraine for 2 years)

[stek]

My post was a bit tongue in cheek, I like Russian food and Polish is not a lot different, although I can't see how packet borscht soup can work lol!!

Back in the day of the sorely missed Freelance Informer sometime in the 90's there was a sort of poll to find the highest paid contractor, and the winner was some guy contracting in Poland on £13,000 a week.

No idea what he was doing, but it stuck in my mind all these years!