Reply to: Agency payment "correction"

[psychocandy]

To answer your points:

1. The 9 hours apparently is some client policy. Uh huh, yeah right! Reading between the lines I imagine this is probably in the contract between client co and agent, but it's not in mine so from my perspective, it's not relevant/applicable.

2. The change was discussed/cleared with the client in advance as a matter of professional courtesy.

1. I agree. Not your circus not your monkeys.

2. Seems strange that they are now attempting to claw money back.

I fear you may have to suck this one up but, if it was me, like I said, they wouldnt get one second of goodwill in future and zero seconds extra time.

[BHicks]

So where'd they get 9 from then?

Sounds similar to my contract. BUT a days a day. If they have an issue with you working 6 hours one day then I see no provision to claim it back.

One thing though - did you clear it with them first or just do it? I'd have said it would be best to sort it first. Possibly client was a bit irked that you just bailed that day early.

To answer your points:

1. The 9 hours apparently is some client policy. Uh huh, yeah right! Reading between the lines I imagine this is probably in the contract between client co and agent, but it's not in mine so from my perspective, it's not relevant/applicable.

2. The change was discussed/cleared with the client in advance as a matter of professional courtesy.

[psychocandy]

Checking the documentation, the following applies:

1. The contract itself makes no mention of rate or PWD. Those details are in an accompanying schedule with the project details, client information etc which is to be taken in conjunction with the contract.

2. The schedule lists a daily rate and states that the "Standard Hours" are 8.

Those are the relevant details, and I'll be following up with the legal eagles to establish what my company's position is.

So where'd they get 9 from then?

Sounds similar to my contract. BUT a days a day. If they have an issue with you working 6 hours one day then I see no provision to claim it back.

One thing though - did you clear it with them first or just do it? I'd have said it would be best to sort it first. Possibly client was a bit irked that you just bailed that day early.

[SussexSeagull]

If you have average eight or more hours a day then point it out to them and expect to be paid.

If they refuse make sure you never give them a minute more of your time than you need to.

[BHicks]

Checking the documentation, the following applies:

1. The contract itself makes no mention of rate or PWD. Those details are in an accompanying schedule with the project details, client information etc which is to be taken in conjunction with the contract.

2. The schedule lists a daily rate and states that the "Standard Hours" are 8.

Those are the relevant details, and I'll be following up with the legal eagles to establish what my company's position is.

[LondonManc]

Well I don't expect anyone to be reported to HMRC for this, no. But in the event of an investigation it could be cause problems. It might be difficult to show that you offered to do this on every occasion.

I was probably wrong to say I'd never offer to do it, but I would be very wary of this becoming a regular thing, for the above reason.

Regular, agreed, because it has the potential to catch you with the "part and parcel" test.

[FrontEnder]

I think people go too far with this IR35 stuff sometimes. Goodwill is goodwill nothing to do with D&C or behaving like an employee. If you paid a plumber to fix your sink and he kindly offered to sort out a leaky tap at the same time free of charge, you wouldn't be reporting them to HMRC it's just called being a decent person and showing that YourCo will go the extra mile now and then. (Yes there are limits etc. but I'm talking a one-off hour here or there).

Well I don't expect anyone to be reported to HMRC for this, no. But in the event of an investigation it could be cause problems. It might be difficult to show that you offered to do this on every occasion.

I was probably wrong to say I'd never offer to do it, but I would be very wary of this becoming a regular thing, for the above reason.

[LondonManc]

I think people go too far with this IR35 stuff sometimes. Goodwill is goodwill nothing to do with D&C or behaving like an employee. If you paid a plumber to fix your sink and he kindly offered to sort out a leaky tap at the same time free of charge, you wouldn't be reporting them to HMRC it's just called being a decent person and showing that YourCo will go the extra mile now and then. (Yes there are limits etc. but I'm talking a one-off hour here or there)

My understanding is that it's a clear case of being told to do something versus offering to do it.

[Willapp]

I can see why offering services and getting paid for it (done properly with a separate SOW for example) would be fine.

But not getting paid for it doesn't sound good. I'm not sure why, I guess it's the kind of thing I would do as a permie, but wouldn't dream of doing as a contractor.

I think people go too far with this IR35 stuff sometimes. Goodwill is goodwill nothing to do with D&C or behaving like an employee. If you paid a plumber to fix your sink and he kindly offered to sort out a leaky tap at the same time free of charge, you wouldn't be reporting them to HMRC it's just called being a decent person and showing that YourCo will go the extra mile now and then. (Yes there are limits etc. but I'm talking a one-off hour here or there).

To actually reply to the OP: I think it's worth a gentle push back on this if you aren't afraid that the agency or client will try and bin you. Contracts are there for a reason and stuff like this should be clearly stated. My contract is PWD but there is provision in the agreement for half-day billing so generally anything up to 4-5 hours I'd book as a half day, anything more is a full day and luckily my timesheet system only permits 0.5 or 1 value entries (i.e. half day or full) so there's no chance of someone misinterpreting what 6 hours actually represents.

[LondonManc]

I can see why offering services and getting paid for it (done properly with a separate SOW for example) would be fine.

But not getting paid for it doesn't sound good. I'm not sure why, I guess it's the kind of thing I would do as a permie, but wouldn't dream of doing as a contractor.

The reasons to do it as a contractor are numerous including business good will and picking up new skills on a contract.

In addition to what SueEllen has said, think of it as a business opportunity - a reason to extend (knowing that you'll go the extra mile) and or to get you back further down the line. You could consider the four hours as marketing spend.

[psychocandy]

Whoa whoa whoa.

You're doing extra hours to cover work that is outside of the project you're contracted to work on?

This sounds really bad for IR35.

It probably does but if you say nope not doing it might be bad for your contract extension too. More to it than just IR35.

[psychocandy]

OP - so does contract just say PWD with no indication of hours at all?

If thats the case, where'd client get 9 hours from anyway? And I'd agree with you - PWD is PWD is one day regardless of hours unless it says in the contract. No pro rata unless its in there.

If client has an issue with me working 6 hours one day then come to speak to me not try and penny pinch.

Out of interest, do you ever work more hours? Personally, I'd say if you're working 8 or more then they can do one if they whinge at just one 6 hour day.

My contract is PWD and 7.5 hours. Theoretically, they can pro rata if I put it down. But I don't - I put 7.5 down every day regardless of whether its 10 or 5. Client doesnt mind the 5 because they get more 10s than 5s...

If I had a client who did this and tried this one I'd be out of the door at 7hrs 30mins 0 seconds every day. If they whinge that its supposed to be 9 hours then find another mug to do that every day on a PWD rate.

[SueEllen]

I can see why offering services and getting paid for it (done properly with a separate SOW for example) would be fine.

But not getting paid for it doesn't sound good. I'm not sure why, I guess it's the kind of thing I would do as a permie, but wouldn't dream of doing as a contractor.

The reasons to do it as a contractor are numerous including business good will and picking up new skills on a contract.

[FrontEnder]

One is where you've offered your services, taking you outside D&C - the other is where they've directed you to provide cover.

I can see why offering services and getting paid for it (done properly with a separate SOW for example) would be fine.

But not getting paid for it doesn't sound good. I'm not sure why, I guess it's the kind of thing I would do as a permie, but wouldn't dream of doing as a contractor.

[LondonManc]

Why is there a difference?

One is where you've offered your services, taking you outside D&C - the other is where they've directed you to provide cover.