Reply to: What to say to get out of invites to IR35 unfriendly activities

[PurpleGorilla]

"Sorry, I'm washing my Porsche."

[Steelman]

Only one answer is necessary

"Sorry, I'm washing my hair."

Works every time.

[Gumbo Robot]

Just for the record, the response from the client was:

I leave it up to contractors to decide for themselves on that one. You provide services as part of a team and I see it as important to work to ensure that team has a sense of cohesion so will always send the invite but leave it up to your personal preference.

Pretty good from a D&C perspective I guess.

[unixman]

Exactly. Are you sympathetic to anyone else's tax avoidance issues (if you do not share those issues)? All you do is drive a little wedge, bone of contention, irritating itch into your supplier/client relationship when you drag up matters that detract from the work in hand. What possibly could be wrong with sitting on a forum as an external consultant on the project?

It's the client's tax avoidance that the issue, not yours.

[Taita]

Try to resist the temptation to involve IR35 in discussions with the client, whatever. You may think you have found a sympathetic ear but their only concern is to keep you happy for that moment. Once you are gone (and when you most need it) they will no longer care.

Exactly. Are you sympathetic to anyone else's tax avoidance issues (if you do not share those issues)? All you do is drive a little wedge, bone of contention, irritating itch into your supplier/client relationship when you drag up matters that detract from the work in hand. What possibly could be wrong with sitting on a forum as an external consultant on the project?

[Underbase]

Accept the invitation and then just don't show up.
Eventually they'll get tired of inviting you

Or ask if there is something that you should be presenting/teaching at said meeting. Shows you have expertise, and that is why they brought you in (to provide skills they don't have on board rather than just a warm body). If there isn't and it's for teaching you, then maybe you should say you have something productive to do.

[MattZani]

Accept the invitation and then just don't show up.
Eventually they'll get tired of inviting you

[SussexSeagull]

Personally my first reaction to such invites is to ask if it is relevant to my work there, not my IR35 status.

Don't get me wrong, ultimately we all need to mindful of IR35 but some are too quick to jump on it whenever the client requests something above and beyond the call of duty.

[Contreras]

Sorry I cannot attend your meeting as I have to steralize my golf clubs.

That's better.

and everybody is happy.

Excellent!

[unixman]

Rather then do IR35 properly, rigourously, which would have reamed out the genuine disguised employees (and I would be happy with that), the govt settled for a FUD solution, which vaguely frightens people and puts them off, while not actually changing the status quo for the powerful vested interests involved. It's a fairly common government wheeze (FUD/muddy water management).

Using the FUD approach, the govt. gets to appear as if it is doing something, but working practices carry on much as before. Large public bodies get to continue their "off payoll", shenanigans, the friday-monday revolving door continues to revolve, and everybody is happy.

[tractor]

...

Speak for yourself. The real value from contractors (in a proper supplier relationship) is their expertise and ability to deliver a distinct set of tasks. One indication might be that the client doesn't have equivalently skilled permies onsite. This is what saves the client real money. Tax is a rounding error. Now, if you're talking about the people that the government is really trying to target, those incorporating largely for tax purposes and typically doing low paid work for which equivalent permies are already onsite, we clearly agree, but many of us would be happy for the government to target those people without collateral damage.

They tried with IR35 but got it so badly wrong. Which just goes to show that IR35 was simply a taxation/envy measure.

Had IR35 been better at what it was ostensibly supposed to do, none of this would be a concern to a real business and arguably, the Dividend tax would not have been considered.

[jamesbrown]

There's a reason you are there, and the client is not stupid.

Speak for yourself. The real value from contractors (in a proper supplier relationship) is their expertise and ability to deliver a distinct set of tasks. One indication might be that the client doesn't have equivalently skilled permies onsite. This is what saves the client real money. Tax is a rounding error. Now, if you're talking about the people that the government is really trying to target, those incorporating largely for tax purposes and typically doing low paid work for which equivalent permies are already onsite, we clearly agree, but many of us would be happy for the government to target those people without collateral damage.

[unixman]

Sorry I cannot attend your meeting as I have to steralize my golf clubs.

[unixman]

There are too many contractors that cannot see the wood for the trees w/r to IR35 and, as a result, massively over complicate things.

To be fair to those contractors, IR35 was designed to achieve just this kind of confusion. Government "tests" intentionally muddied the water even further.

It's naive to think your status and tax position (they are one) are of no interest to the client. There's a reason you are there, and the client is not stupid.

[jamesbrown]

What I am saying is if you say you are concerned that activity x is the sort of thing that could lead to you being deemed an employee, they will know exactly what you mean (not Fred) and they will care. That is the whole reason you are there. Anyone who does not understand it (like Fred) will likely keep quiet so as not to appear foolish.

I can't speak for you, but the following is how my relationships work. I'm there to deliver a set of tasks. I deliver the tasks. I don't deliver "not" the tasks. I'm polite at all times (see the advice above from SussexSeagull). I'm not there to save the client tax and the client is not motivated by saving me tax (incidentally, most of my clients are overseas).

The reason that some clients fail to treat contractors as suppliers is that they don't act like suppliers, they act like disguised employees. There are too many contractors that cannot see the wood for the trees w/r to IR35 and, as a result, massively over complicate things. You're not there to deliver "not" the tasks. Be polite.