Reply to: UK National Wanting to Contract in the US

[jjdarg]

Thanks for the links. I'm beginning to think I may just do a Boris and tell them to get stuffed.

No prob. Good luck with it.

[jjdarg]

The initial estimate for the programme I worked on was £300M for the implementation alone (it got knocked back by the board because "surely the Yanks can't be serious" and a "lite" approach was adopted alongside a strategy of lobbying the UK gov to relax data protection rules), and one of the Big 4 estimated it would cost $10/year compliance/maintenance for every account a bank holds, not just those of US persons. And a US Person can be anyone deemed connected to the US no matter how tenuously: spouses of US citizens, children of former citizens, people who may have been born in the US when their parents were working there, the list goes on.

At the risk of getting too political here, if the discrimination was happening to people with connections with a country other than the US, the UK and world press would have been up in arms about it. They do go on about Eritrea (the only other country in the world that taxes citizens abroad), and Canada even ejected the Eritrean embassy over it, but bent over backwards to comply with FATCA.

[TykeMerc]

I've noticed that here recently. Applications for current/savings accounts now routinely ask if you're liable to tax in the US (and simply don't allow it).

While it's arguably a bit discriminatory I can understand why the banks would do that, if they get dragged into painful and expensive reporting on their US citizen customers then the accounts aren't worth the pain.

[jamesbrown]

That's how I initially found out more than the normal bystander. I was working on a FATCA programme. I couldn't bring myself to do it now, though. UK banks just bent over to the US and lobbied the UK Gov to make data protection for US persons (whether British or not) more flexible; I got to see some of that first hand.

It is such a pernicious law that even the US Ambassador to Switzerland advised expats there to renounce if they wanted an economic life outside of the US. But the Swiss banks, rather than setting up huge regulatory programmes, are just closing accounts of US persons rather than deal with the reporting overhead. That includes mortgages and investment accounts, too.

I've noticed that here recently. Applications for current/savings accounts now routinely ask if you're liable to tax in the US (and simply don't allow it).

[jjdarg]

The only silver lining seems to be all the projects and programs implementing FATCA ....

That's how I initially found out more than the normal bystander. I was working on a FATCA programme. I couldn't bring myself to do it now, though. UK banks just bent over to the US and lobbied the UK Gov to make data protection for US persons (whether British or not) more flexible; I got to see some of that first hand.

It is such a pernicious law that even the US Ambassador to Switzerland advised expats there to renounce if they wanted an economic life outside of the US. But the Swiss banks, rather than setting up huge regulatory programmes, are just closing accounts of US persons rather than deal with the reporting overhead. That includes mortgages and investment accounts, too.

[jjdarg]

It will be interesting to see if FACTA is revoked, if not I may take the final step and get rid of the IRS.

There is a paper that Repubs put out the other day on tax reform. They mention extraterritorial taxation, but mostly in the form of taxing US corporations on earnings abroad. At the very end of the section on the effects on corporations, there is a line or two about citizens abroad. My feeling is that they'll lift it for corporations but sacrifice revocation of citizenship taxation to the Dems as

a) Multinationals are the main funders for both parties
b) US Citizens abroad can't vote as a bloc due to the way absentee voting is handled
c) It can save face for the Dems as one of their concessions
d) in the eyes of Joe Six-Pack, we either i) don't pay our fair share or ii) are un-American for living somewhere else (and those ideas emanate from the politicians, anyway)

Although I don't have a pony in the race any more I follow the activities of the Isaac Brock Society who are mainly Canadian. Lots of good info and links on there if you want to know more.

I tried writing my MP about the effects FATCA will have on anyone and how the IGA with the US opens UKGOV to human rights challenges, but he didn't reply.

[jamesbrown]

Ah no, I run a UK Ltd. Last bit of work I had in the States I just put all the money through my Ltd. Traveled to the US on US passport and back to the UK on my British. So in terms of tax I just stick to filing my American earnings as part of my UK income. One to watch out for is if you earn more that £2,500 a year from outside the UK they will be wanting that £30,000 ghost fee.

I checked with my accountant and there is a capital gains allowance for your first residence overseas, but it is restricted to $250,000.

It will be interesting to see if FACTA is revoked, if not I may take the final step and get rid of the IRS.

Certainly, there are no issues w/ putting a US client through your UK limited. However, for you personally, the fundamental problem with being a US citizen is, as you know, that the US - unlike pretty much every other country - does not tax purely on the basis of residency but citizenship. For a citizen outside the US receiving substantial unearned income (e.g. interest, dividends), that becomes a nightmare, because the foreign earned income exclusion doesn't catch all your income (it's a pretty low limit anyway, around $100k), so the return is way more complex. Also, the double tax treaty may not provide complete relief, depending on the nature of the income.

For someone that owns a UK company it becomes even more complex, in my understanding, as you need to file a return for your status as a UK company director in the same way you would living in the US. That means handling subpart F income etc. I don't want to concern you unnecessarily (providing you're actually submitting a return, you're doing well compared to most US citizens overseas ), but it's a little risky to rely on an accountant, even with cross-border experience. It's a minefield. You really want a tax expert with cross-border experience, and they charge a lot. Mention subpart F to your accountant and see what they say. If their eyes glaze over...

[Jack Kada]

Depends, are you comparing NY to London, or NY to Aberdeen for instance. I'm miffed how people keep putting the entire US in one basked, despite the fact that law, standard of living, weather etc. varies drastically between the states. And/or associate US with NY alone...

Sorry I should have stated - Compring london to new york in finance related role

[sal]

Dont forget the climate which beats new york hands down every time

Depends, are you comparing NY to London, or NY to Aberdeen for instance. I'm miffed how people keep putting the entire US in one basked, despite the fact that law, standard of living, weather etc. varies drastically between the states. And/or associate US with NY alone...

[Jack Kada]

Yeah, other than the outward friendliness of Americans and a lot more consumer convenience, which I miss occasionally, there aren't that many pluses for me to move back to the States. I like my lifestyle here, and other than a bigger house, you tend to live the same life you live anywhere you go (having lived and worked in 4 different countries).

I did live in Germany for a couple of years, and I loved the ethos that work stayed at work, and you worked your 'nads off between 9 and 5 and then went home (at an investment bank!); a lot of time is spent here in social grooming exercises (aka meetings), which eats into productive time which in turn eats into life time (but I think that is a general Anglophone issue, and not just British). But then Germans don't have such a laugh at work as we do, and Americans can be pretty humourless in the workplace, too.

In terms of square mileage, Britain probably has one of the most diverse, beautiful, and freely accessible geographies in the world, packed into one tiny little island. Only drawback is having to travel/commute to and from it on congested roads and trains!

Dont forget the climate which beats new york hands down every time

[jjdarg]

This is very very fascinating - I spent quite a bit of time in the states and I generally was left with the impression that London was far superior from a quality of life point of view, climate point of view and general interlectual simulation of work.

I did look at working there and had a H1B visa sponsorship in hand but I concluded my decision by saying that the UK for all its faults was a much better place then the US.

Interestingly enough the number of people I met in the states who said they would move to london in a heartbeat gave me the reassuarnce I was looking for that the UK was a far better place.

There are jobs in new york I admit but then again there are quite a few jobs in the UK too so unless you have family over there I could not see any economic benefit in moving

Yeah, other than the outward friendliness of Americans and a lot more consumer convenience, which I miss occasionally, there aren't that many pluses for me to move back to the States. I like my lifestyle here, and other than a bigger house, you tend to live the same life you live anywhere you go (having lived and worked in 4 different countries).

I did live in Germany for a couple of years, and I loved the ethos that work stayed at work, and you worked your 'nads off between 9 and 5 and then went home (at an investment bank!); a lot of time is spent here in social grooming exercises (aka meetings), which eats into productive time which in turn eats into life time (but I think that is a general Anglophone issue, and not just British). But then Germans don't have such a laugh at work as we do, and Americans can be pretty humourless in the workplace, too.

In terms of square mileage, Britain probably has one of the most diverse, beautiful, and freely accessible geographies in the world, packed into one tiny little island. Only drawback is having to travel/commute to and from it on congested roads and trains!

[Jack Kada]

Funny you should put it like that...I never thought of it that way. The only records would be with the State Dept and the FBI. And State is trying to downplay the impact of FATCA on renunciation (although they've quadrupled the fee this year) by underpublishing the stats - I never made it to their name and shame list, for instance, nor have many others. FBI have me on a list so that I can't buy guns - that's about the only thing I couldn't do were I to return.

The only privilege I got as an American abroad is to pay the US Gov to evacuate me from somewhere. (I read somewhere that an American citizen was airlifted out of Somalia and the bill for him and his family was $100,000 - probably payable in instalments.) Being a US citizen abroad does not have many privileges - there are no free consular services, and probably has more downside, including increased harassment from the USG.

Well, as far as I'm concerned, my life is here, now, and may require occasional travel to the States. But it did take me a couple of painful years to make the decision. (I served 6 years in the US Navy, and well-steeped in patriotism, but it finally occurred to me that the government of "my" country felt no obligation to me, so why should I reciprocate?)

This is very very fascinating - I spent quite a bit of time in the states and I generally was left with the impression that London was far superior from a quality of life point of view, climate point of view and general interlectual simulation of work.

I did look at working there and had a H1B visa sponsorship in hand but I concluded my decision by saying that the UK for all its faults was a much better place then the US.

Interestingly enough the number of people I met in the states who said they would move to london in a heartbeat gave me the reassuarnce I was looking for that the UK was a far better place.

There are jobs in new york I admit but then again there are quite a few jobs in the UK too so unless you have family over there I could not see any economic benefit in moving

[jjdarg]

I've wondered about this ... So you renounced your citizenship, sent the passport back? But you still have a US birth certificate and SS number etc .. So you fly back into the US on your UK passport and visitor visa. Then just resume life in the USA ... Something like 50% of all people don't have a passport in the US.

Funny you should put it like that...I never thought of it that way. The only records would be with the State Dept and the FBI. And State is trying to downplay the impact of FATCA on renunciation (although they've quadrupled the fee this year) by underpublishing the stats - I never made it to their name and shame list, for instance, nor have many others. FBI have me on a list so that I can't buy guns - that's about the only thing I couldn't do were I to return.

The only privilege I got as an American abroad is to pay the US Gov to evacuate me from somewhere. (I read somewhere that an American citizen was airlifted out of Somalia and the bill for him and his family was $100,000 - probably payable in instalments.) Being a US citizen abroad does not have many privileges - there are no free consular services, and probably has more downside, including increased harassment from the USG.

Well, as far as I'm concerned, my life is here, now, and may require occasional travel to the States. But it did take me a couple of painful years to make the decision. (I served 6 years in the US Navy, and well-steeped in patriotism, but it finally occurred to me that the government of "my" country felt no obligation to me, so why should I reciprocate?)

[jamesbrown]

I pay about £500 a year with a UK based US specialist accountant?

That's extraordinarily good value (if they're doing it properly ). As far as I can recall, if you have a UK company, handling Subpart F income alone (from a Controlled Foreign Corporation) requires several hours of effort, and a specialist will typically charge something not far south of £500 an hour. As jjdarg has noted, everything has become pretty hard-core post FATCA.

On your point about renouncing citizenship, once you've done that, you're an alien, regardless of birth certificate. Not having a passport isn't the same as not having the right to residency (i.e. a US Citizen without a passport is still still a US Citizen). You renounce all rights and privileges, by definition. Edit: also, note that anyone eligible for a SS number at some point can retain that SS number (it doesn't imply anything about the right to residency).

[jjdarg]

I pay about £500 a year with a UK based US specialist accountant?

That's pretty good. I gave up the citizenship back in 2012 and my US-based guy was beginning to get up on his charges once the FATCA stuff started coming in.

My problem isn't so much tax guys, it's things like having my entire economic life here, but being unable to do things like sell my primary home without having to pay CGT (I don't really care about mortgage interest relief, as the house is practically paid for) or tax free savings (ISAs) here not being tax free for US purposes. And I don't intend retiring in the states, either.

Plus potential penalties. If the IRS says you're guilty, you're guilty until proven innocent. It took me three years to sort out a mistake Turbo Tax made to the tune of $3000. I had to get the Taxpayer Advocate involved because there was no one I spoke to at the IRS who understood international taxation - even on their international number. By that point the fines and penalties were going north of $6k. Too many life points eaten up in trying to sort it out.

Citizen-based taxation is a bi-partisan issue, too. The Dems believe we're not paying our fair share, and the Reps think we're unpatriotic - and besides, our votes only get counted if a tie breaker is needed in our home districts. 6 million votes spread across 50 states and countless districts does not a voting bloc make. The Republicans are making noise about FATCA, but I believe only because it, more than other citizen-based taxation issues, affects their corporate donors.

The default position of FATCA is that all of us living abroad are tax evaders and we have to prove that we aren't.
[/rant mode]