Reply to: Child Support / Maintenance

[Mojito]

FNF, the new F4J

I don't know if you got a response but plenty do have his details or the means to contact him. It seems it is unlikely he will post on CUK again.

If, however, you want support or advice, I think he would probably recommend you join the Fathers4Justice facebook page: Fathers 4 Justice - The Official Campaign Organisation | Facebook

Richard - yup I'm a paid-up member of Families need Fathers, the more user-friendly version of F4J which has been good for support over the past year in particular. To be honest though, much of the content on there is opinion and horror stories of contact problems, with some inspiring tales of endurance against a wholly biased system (I'll not get my soapbox out). I'd still appreciate Brillo's email address if anyone can PM it to me, even if just to get a sounding board in respect of the scary-looking CMEC proposals being bull-dozered through.

Muchas gracias

[RichardCranium]

Does anyone have contact details for BrilloPad? I think TonyCooper & I could do with his insight .... PM?

I don't know if you got a response but plenty do have his details or the means to contact him. It seems it is unlikely he will post on CUK again.

If, however, you want support or advice, I think he would probably recommend you join the Fathers4Justice facebook page: Fathers 4 Justice - The Official Campaign Organisation | Facebook

[Mojito]

BrilloPad...!!

Does anyone have contact details for him? I think TonyCooper & I could do with his insight .... PM?

[Mojito]

Rock & a hardplace

I don't mind paying an average 400/month but if i do I will be stuffed later. I even asked the CSA that in those circumstances will they take into account that I was voluntarily paying 400/month for the last 2 years when by their calculations say I should have only been paying £36/month and they said no.

You also cannot have a private agreement which removes the possibility of my ex going to the CSA in the future because you cant have a private agreement that countermands a law.

I feel for you Tony - you want to do the right thing by your kids and are happy to pay over the odds in the short term to help maintain a reasonable living for them. However, if you genuinely cannot trust your ex to stick to a sensible agreement that takes into account the down- as well as the up-side of contracting then you are damned which ever way you move.

Dropping down to the CSA figure now will upset your son (if your ex is like mine, she'll stop treats and things to make sure he suffers and also will continually blame you for it). So thats a rubbish option from a parent / non-resident father perspective. But as you say you'll get no credit for paying over the odds when the CSA (or CMEC) assess you when you are on the up-side, so not appealing from a personal risk / reward perspective.

IMHO the "least bad" option would be to go with the CSA figures as they are the ones your missus wants to play with when they're in her favour, why not do the same when they are in your favour? It might be a reality check for her and help her take a more realistic & balanced view of your income and agree an appropriate figure, with a realisation that there really is a down-side. Remember if you are benched and sign-up for JSA, your CM drops to a stoopid low figure (£5 a month I think). It would be nice to think that this would work in your situation - I know that it would not (will not) work in mine as my ex has a massive sense of entitlement to everything the world has to offer.

The other option I would say is to look at ways to reduce your £90k by not taking so much out of the company (assuming you are LTD?). As you say the CSA are happy for you to overpay, so if an assessment when you are on the upside comes is at below the £400, there's nothing stopping you doing what you are now and overpaying.

Good luck, its not a nice situation to be in thatsb for sure. One thing that I have learned through bitter experience with my ex over the past two years is that you'll get no thanks for doing MORE than is required, but lambasted for doing LESS.

I think there was an ex-FNF guy who was a forum member with a short fuse so he got banned. It would be an idea to try to track him down as he said he had a lot experience in dealing with the CSA....

[SueEllen]

I've often wondered that. I've also often wondered why there are so many women who have children by men like that?

While it's sometimes deliberate that absent parents don't pay for their children the aim isn't to hurt the child.

From the people I know involved in divorced cases either as children or adults who are divorced with children. It's generally one parent wanting to get revenge on the other parent, and one way of doing that is controlling the money.

Other cases are just that the non-custodial parent doesn't think they need to pay for that child either because they are a selfish person or they just don't think. Having grown up with children of 2 families who both lived with their dad there are mums who fall into this as well.

[amcdonald]

I've often wondered that. I've also often wondered why there are so many women who have children by men like that?

(This isn't a tit-for-tat putdown, it really puzzles me).

Because it's a lot easier to get a house by getting pregnant than working yourself, so either they sponge off the social or they marry/divorce and get a house

To some women men are merely walking cash machines

[Ignis Fatuus]

Also a shame that there are so many assholes out there who WANT to avoid paying for their child/children.

What kind of person does that?

I've often wondered that. I've also often wondered why there are so many women who have children by men like that?

(This isn't a tit-for-tat putdown, it really puzzles me).

[jmo21]

Probably the sort that when the woman got pregnant the man wanted her to have an abortion but got over ruled? No, Ive never been in that position. But its always struck me as crazy that a woman decides what happens to her body (agree with), but this then forces the man to pay regardless of whether he wanted the child or not.

It takes two to make a baby. So does it take two to decide to keep it?

If you can't do the time....etc....

[GillsMan]

Probably the sort that when the woman got pregnant the man wanted her to have an abortion but got over ruled? No, Ive never been in that position. But its always struck me as crazy that a woman decides what happens to her body (agree with), but this then forces the man to pay regardless of whether he wanted the child or not.

It takes two to make a baby. So does it take two to decide to keep it?

Good grief. Yes it takes two to make it and yes any decision should involve both parties. However, if they can't agree, who should get the final say? Yes, the woman.

[escapeUK]

Also a shame that there are so many assholes out there who WANT to avoid paying for their child/children.

What kind of person does that?

Probably the sort that when the woman got pregnant the man wanted her to have an abortion but got over ruled? No, Ive never been in that position. But its always struck me as crazy that a woman decides what happens to her body (agree with), but this then forces the man to pay regardless of whether he wanted the child or not.

It takes two to make a baby. So does it take two to decide to keep it?

[tonycooper]

Trying to do the right thing

My 13yr old son lives with my ex and comes for every 2nd weekend. My 17yr old daughter (6th form) lives with me and visits her mother whenever she wants.

I have been voluntarily paying my ex £400/week since the divorce in Nov/10.

My contracting has been really really bad for the last 18 months and the CSA has deemed (based on salaries and dividend information) that I need to pay £36/month.

If my contracting takes off again I could be earning (net 90k for example) meaning the CSA would then calculate 90k -15% for my daughter * 15% for my son = 880/month

I am happy to pay 400/month all the time (that is based on what my son needs as calculated form the budgets we operated while I was married) but here is the scenario I am contemplating....

My work is still bad for the next 2 years but then really ramps up and hits the 90k mark for 2 years.

My ex will happily take the 400/month I give her now (she has already closed the CSA case who have mailed me saying "regular payments of child maintenance need to be paid")

When my work picks up, she will happily (this is how she thinks - really) then go to the CSA who will asses me and force me to pay £880/month.

I don't mind paying an average 400/month but if i do I will be stuffed later. I even asked the CSA that in those circumstances will they take into account that I was voluntarily paying 400/month for the last 2 years when by their calculations say I should have only been paying £36/month and they said no.

You also cannot have a private agreement which removes the possibility of my ex going to the CSA in the future because you cant have a private agreement that countermands a law.

I want to make sure my son gets what he needs (the 400/month) but it seems like I am going to get penalised for doing the right thing…..

[Mojito]

Flogging a dead horse? Or are you already there or there abouts?

Jay - I don't think that you're going to get anyone lead you through this by the nose. There are plenty of clues out there that answer your question if you can master Google.

While I can appreciate your point of view, the CM system in this country is not a 'flat rate' model, its simply a %age of your income. In your case you think that the CSA will find that you need to pay £800 which is 15% of over £5,000 TAKE HOME a month, which is not too shabby a living amount even after CM deductions.

HOWEVER: If your 'good month' take home is this level, multiply by 10 rather than 12 to 'smooth' the income annually (to take contractor factors such as unpaid holiday, sickness & bench-time into account) then do the CSA 15% cut for one child. Result is about £625. Now take away your 1/7th for the one overnight stay per week and you land at about £550.

HTH

[css_jay99]

Nope, I am by no means saying that My Ex's husband should be factored into child care costs.

What I am saying is that me and My Ex have a dual responsibility in providing for our child. Me Obviously & rightly to pay the largest sum since I have my child for only one day of the week.

I am saying that £500 monthly is more than enough to look after a child(no nursery/afterschool club fees involved). any more payment than this will not be used to support my child but for My Ex to support other things in her own household. That is what I dont count as fair.

So you ask yourself what you could do with an additional £300 into your household?... If it was me, i know I can do a lot i.e. go towards the big hole in my mortgage when i bought her out for starters..)

My questions about how I can structure my finances in the eye of CSA is not to shed my responsibility as a father but to make sure I dont get taken advantage of because we live in a society that wants us to believe that all NRP are bastards and dont want to pay for thier littleones.


css_jay99

[jmo21]

It is very silly to think that, and you are obviously not in that situation to really know how it feels like. ........ saying pay based on income......
This will mean paying my Ex around £800+ instead of £500 i am currently paying !

I Pay my Ex £500 monthly .... just a mutual arrangement & no CSA involvment. I am well aware I am over paying(..afterrall i know how much things were costing before we broke up..)
My Ex is now re-married with a baby on the way and they have a household income of say about £90k

<snip>

BASICALLY I need a way out to protect myself so PLEASE HELP!!!!

cheers
css_jay99

Ok, so the crux of your argument is that the system is not correct and it should take into account your ex's husbands income but not your full income.

It sounds like you are already "beating the system" because your wife is willing to not involve the CSA.

[ASB]

1) IF CSA intervene, will they be looking at my [ PAYE & Dividend ] OR at my company profit&loss accounts to decide what to pay...?


The CSA site will detail what they include in "income". Broadly it is normally salaries. However a variation can be applied for and in the case where you have dividend income from a controlled company then this is usually not included unless the other side asks for it to be.

There is also a potential situation where is you have assets of more than 65k these can be included with a "deemed income".

2) Since I guess CSA could ask for my Payslip they could conclude that I have money by other means (...Considering that I am sure my ex will mention to they that I run a Ltd Co and pay mostly by dividend....). Could they ask me to hand in my SA tax return?. How many years are they likely to ask for?, would they only be interested in the current(latest) SA tax return. I need to know this so I can decide when to pay lump sum and then starve………

They can't actually compel you to hand over anything specific but you have a duty of disclosure. They can go straight to your employer(s) and go for an AOE or similar though if you won't play ball.

3) What is the average time between my Ex getting in touch with them and they contacting me


It's very quick generally.

BASICALLY I need a way out to protect myself so PLEASE HELP!!!!

Try and remember this is not about you, it's not about her, it's not about the fact that she may be buying a new X5. It's about the welfare of your joint child. Whatever the merits or otherwise of the situation it is done in a formulaic way. Either of you can go to the CSA, there is a new scheme on it's way which is based on a certain (higher) percentage of taxable income. It is supposed to be simpler, there will be winners and losers. You would be likely to fall into the latter category from your description.

The payment you make will inevitably appear to fund part of her (and new bloke and childs) lifestyle. However this will always be the case. It is not specifically to pay for the ongoing day to day costs as such. It is intended to ensure that the child is in an environment where this can happen. That also costs, both you and your ex contribute to that.

Whatever happens I do hope you reach agreement. However, pay yourself no salary, then every few years pay yourself a huge bonus to hit the 100k limit and then more. This will reduce your payments due to the way the figures are calculated, though she can of course use the courts.

Join an EBT scheme (eek!) this will reduce your assessable income under the rules.