Reply to: BN66 - Round 2 (Court of Appeal)

[administrator]

With the judgement being handed down on Monday it is best to start a new thread to lighten the load on the server. This thread is now closed and the discussion can be continued here:
http://forums.contractoruk.com/accou...al-beyond.html

[not-a-penny]

I can understand her concern but, whatever happens on Monday, we are a long way off HMRC being able to enforce collection.

In any case, why would HMRC block the sale if that meant them getting paid?

... and while we are on the subject, would I be right to assume that even in the worst case that HMRC eventually win and I'm forced to sell the house, they can only get their gruby hands on my half of the equity? Or is it not as simple as that?

[not-a-penny]

I reckon a year to 18 months.

Thanks DR. I've just browsed through the SC web site and there are ongoing cases dating from Q1 2009.

[DonkeyRhubarb]

How long is the SC process likely to take? COA came in at 18 month.

I reckon a year to 18 months.

[DonkeyRhubarb]

I think the Gaines-Cooper case is every bit as contentious.

I'll have to beg to differ.

The Gaines-Cooper case hinges on HMRC guidance, not statute.

IMHO, retrospectively changing the law is far more contentious.

[Fireship]

A case in point on efficient tax planning, I assume HMRC will implement a retro tax to catch out Google??:

Britain loses out in Google's tax avoidance | Business

No chance, they'll simply let them off like they did with Vodaphone.... HMRC only pick on little people who don't have deep pockets to defend themselves with, like us and door to door Avon sales people who they retrospectively decided were Avon employees..... After all it's only fair that HMRC should be able to decide which fights to pick rather than applying the same rules across the board without exception....

[not-a-penny]

Someone asked me to clarify this because there seems to be some confusion.

The Court of Appeal could give leave to appeal to the Supreme Court but this is highly unusual. As an aside, they could also refer PwC's case to the European Court of Justice.

It is much more likely that either us, or HMRC, would have to apply to the Supreme Court.

Given the contentious nature of the case, and precedents involved, it is inconceivable to me that the SC would not hear the case. The Seychelles guy Gaines-Cooper got his case heard by the SC and this was far less contentious and wide reaching.

How long is the SC process likely to take? COA came in at 18 month.

[Emigre]

Someone asked me to clarify this because there seems to be some confusion.

The Court of Appeal could give leave to appeal to the Supreme Court but this is highly unusual. As an aside, they could also refer PwC's case to the European Court of Justice.

It is much more likely that either us, or HMRC, would have to apply to the Supreme Court.

Given the contentious nature of the case, and precedents involved, it is inconceivable to me that the SC would not hear the case. The Seychelles guy Gaines-Cooper got his case heard by the SC and this was far less contentious and wide reaching.

I think the Gaines-Cooper case is every bit as contentious. By all accounts he has lived in the Seychelles since 1976 yet HMRC feel they are entitled to tax him for all that time. Just think how many other people who left the country in the last 35 years are now waiting to be felt round the collar?

Apparently, he has a house here and a golf membership but then so do many people who don't live here.

Its another of those cases that destroys any certainty that may have once existed in the UK tax system. Not only that but you would have thought with the extent of tax legislation we have that HMRC could actually put together a reasonably watertight definitions of domicile and residency.

Its another one that does nothing but open up a potential can of worms, retrospectively too.

[DonkeyRhubarb]

Further to my previous post, this explains the route to the SC:

http://www.supremecourt.gov.uk/docs/...se-to-UKSC.pdf

[SantaClaus]

I'm assuming that all this will drag on for years yet in some form or other, I'm finding it hard to get more than mildly interested in Monday's judgement. Not worth expending so much nervous energy on worrying, action is the only worthwhile energy expenditure, worrying is counter-productive. In case anyone has a pop I do have 6 figs riding on this but I haven't actively worried for a couple of years now and it hasn't made any difference to events. When there's something we can do I'll be all over it - until then I'm relaxing... ;-)

Thanks DR for all the updates helps to have such consistency - you should get an OBE for services to the community!

Completely agree with you Bombaycat, there's no point getting stressed about Monday's decision, as the chances are it's going to drag on a lot longer.

Goes without saying that we all owe thanks to DR for his help!

[DonkeyRhubarb]

Appeals Process

Someone asked me to clarify this because there seems to be some confusion.

The Court of Appeal could give leave to appeal to the Supreme Court but this is highly unusual. As an aside, they could also refer PwC's case to the European Court of Justice.

It is much more likely that either us, or HMRC, would have to apply to the Supreme Court.

Given the contentious nature of the case, and precedents involved, it is inconceivable to me that the SC would not hear the case. The Seychelles guy Gaines-Cooper got his case heard by the SC and this was far less contentious and wide reaching.

[Emigre]

I'd be astonished if we got an end to this on Monday as I can't see any judgement being so watertight that it can't be appealed somehow by either side, which I assume is what either 'losing' party would do. Personally I'm looking on Monday as the next necessary step to go through on the still long road to getting a resolution.

Obviously that's not to say I'm not sick to the back teeth with the whole situation . . . . . .

How about this scenario? HR legislation gives a "wide margin of appreciation" to Member States when it comes to taxation. In broad terms that expression has never been defined. This case may start defining it. The LJs could simply say that retrospection of 6 years for Huitson, and potentially 21 years back to Padmore, is beyond that "wide margin".

Yes, that would mean a win for us on our case but it would not be a loss for HMRC on their holy grail of retrospection since anything less than 6 years or under slightly different circumstances could still be potentially acceptable to the Courts.

In this circumstance, do you think HMRC would appeal? Under appeal they could potentially lose the whole lot. Again though it will all depend upon the wording in the decisions. Also not forgetting the Shiner case which could also give us something to drink to.

[RingStinger]

I'm assuming that all this will drag on for years yet in some form or other, I'm finding it hard to get more than mildly interested in Monday's judgement. Not worth expending so much nervous energy on worrying, action is the only worthwhile energy expenditure, worrying is counter-productive. In case anyone has a pop I do have 6 figs riding on this but I haven't actively worried for a couple of years now and it hasn't made any difference to events. When there's something we can do I'll be all over it - until then I'm relaxing... ;-)

Thanks DR for all the updates helps to have such consistency - you should get an OBE for services to the community!

Similar view as me. Despite my house-repossession sized liability (though not a bankruptcy one), there's still nothing I can do about it. Rates for me are lower than they were 10-15 years ago so I can't raise the funds through saving.

I could quite happily sit on the uncertainty for another 10 years...

[Taffia]

I'd be astonished if we got an end to this on Monday as I can't see any judgement being so watertight that it can't be appealed somehow by either side, which I assume is what either 'losing' party would do. Personally I'm looking on Monday as the next necessary step to go through on the still long road to getting a resolution.

Obviously that's not to say I'm not sick to the back teeth with the whole situation . . . . . .

[CanPayButWouldRatherNot]

3 more sleeps

Hadn't logged on this week - and now i wish i hadnt ... that way I wouldnt have this horrid feeling in my tummy.........

Guess the upside is im half way through the fretting period that all the diligent peeps had

3 more sleeps
3 more sleeps