Reply to: Confused!

[AnotherIan]

Ack, just lost my post and citations, so I'll summarise without the justifications.

1) This legislation is aimed at contractors, it does so by targetting MSCs.
2) An MSC is not clearly defined. I can probably make a case that my web hosting company is an MSC. I could use services where my Googlerank is monitored and tweaked with payment made based on success. However, I could equally argue the opposite and that's just using the tests listed.
3) Apparently brought in because of Eastern European contractors. I thought there were only 13,000 of them, but apparently one or two more popped over.
4) JSD/NW, etc are exempt from this.
5) Operating as a Ltd using JSD and co means you operate as you did prior to April under the same conditions, i.e. IR35 compliance is still an issue but there are no new rules. In saying that, see point 2, there may be practical considerations.

[THEPUMA]

As for advised to avoid us, by whom? - Giant?

I think this refers to the Lawspeed seminar that they held for agencies in conjunction with HMRC. Apparently, they told agencies that pretty much all accountants were caught. Obviously, HMRC concurred with this view. And now the agencies who attended are spreading this to their candidates.

But they have then taken a completely different stance when speaking to accountants.

I believe James May posts on here so maybe he could clarify their stance.

[Nixon Williams]

Simon, I am merely a disillusioned contractor; quite clearly the major accounting firms advising Giant disagree with you. Giant had nothing to gain in leaving us all in the lurch, so they must have believed the advice they were given?

SJD, NW, 360, Brooksons & JSA are all on their list of probable MSCs and we have been advised to avoid you.

The product Giant were offering was very different from what we, SJD etc offer to our clients. As a large MSC provider, they planned to have control of the bank account, actioning payments, raising invoices, providing insurance etc. None of which we offer and neither have we ever offered a MSC service (or umbrella come to that).

Giant were slow to respond to the proposed changes and when they did devise something it clearly failed to comply with the new measures. They have everything to gain from pushing people into their umbrella, as Simon has said they are easier to administer and more profitable.

As for advised to avoid us, by whom? - Giant?

Alan

[THEPUMA]

Check with the PCG Joel, you'll find all our offices are accredited by the PCG.

Unlike your Company.

I am not sure why you are addressing this to me Simon. The original quote was from Beerbarrel.

And we are accredited by the PCG.

[ASB]

My agency's concern is that, using SJD as an example, although I might genuinely be in business SJD may have other clients who are not. If you are deemed by HMRC to be a MSC Provider in the future then I will be classed as an MSC because I use your services.

That with the transfer of debts provisions is the problem. I do not believe that anybody who is operatiing a "regular" limited company using accountants in a "normal" manner will be in any way caught by the provisions.

But, the 64,000 dollar question becomes will an agency take the risk? I don't know how it will pan out. A possible result is that all contractors may effectively need to move to paye (rather like Gordon intended with IR35 of course).

He knows he cannot introduce specifically targetted legislation, but he also knows a climate of fear and uncertainly may achieve close to the same aim.

The fact that a "regular" company is "legal" won't help anyone if agencies are too scared of the risk. Exactly the same scenario as being self employed.

[beerbarrel]

I read the Giant press release carefully and I agree that neither they nor anyone else I have read is suggesting that this is the end of the PSC that is genuinely in business. Indeed I never suggested otherwise.

There seems to be agreement that it is the end of the MSC Provider who is 'promoting and facilitating'. So the likes of SJD, NW, & etc, who make it easy for contractors who not genuinely in business to operate are the focus of this legislation.

I cannot find a reference from Treasury saying otherwise?

My agency's concern is that, using SJD as an example, although I might genuinely be in business SJD may have other clients who are not. If you are deemed by HMRC to be a MSC Provider in the future then I will be classed as an MSC because I use your services. My penalties will date back to 6th April 2007. You cannot give me a guarantee against tax losses I might suffer as a result as that would definitely make you an MSC Provider.

It seems that the best bet is to use a brolly in the short term until this mess is sorted out. A PSC provided by SJD, NW, 360, Brooksons or JSA seems to be unecessarily risky since there are clearly conflicting opinions amongst the leading accounting firms.

[simondolan]

If you read Giants PR carefully you will see that the individual advising them did not say all would be caught - he said:

"This is the end for companies specialising in promoting and facilitating tax advantageous services to one man limited companies"

Which is exactly what the Treasury say, and exactly what Giant were trying to do with their scheme. The reason for the Treasury including this was to catch the likes of Giant and Brooksons who were in the process of moving en masse the people who were with their composites/MSC schemes simply being moved over to another "scheme". You will see from the withdrawn Giant scheme that Giant were still proposing administering the bank account etc etc - this is what caught them out, not some altruist motive to somehow save the innocent contractor from losing his house. It was scaremongering at best. You will notice that no other firm/authority/agency has agreed with Giant's interpretation - including the Treasury themselves!!

You will notice that the Giant quoted source does not say this is the end of accountants being able to provide services to One Man Ltd cos does he? If you assume that accountants such as us, JSA, NW and so on are somehow caught by the regulations then you must apply that to all accountants - simply the number of clients they act for could not be the determining factor.

Finally, Giant had an awful lot to gain by issuing that PR - a client operating under an umbrella is far more profitable than operating under their own Ltd Co from the accountants point of view.

Simon, I am merely a disillusioned contractor; quite clearly the major accounting firms advising Giant disagree with you. Giant had nothing to gain in leaving us all in the lurch, so they must have believed the advice they were given?

I was with Powerhouse and I am hacked off with the whole situation and the uncertainty. I will be earning 20% less this month than I did last month, but I am not prepared to risk bankruptcy by going PSC.

I have been reading all the articles on here, ITContractor and Shout99. My agency attended a lawspeed seminar last week and they confirmed that even accounting practices could be caught.

SJD, NW, 360, Brooksons & JSA are all on their list of probable MSCs and we have been advised to avoid you.

[beerbarrel]

Simon, I am merely a disillusioned contractor; quite clearly the major accounting firms advising Giant disagree with you. Giant had nothing to gain in leaving us all in the lurch, so they must have believed the advice they were given?

I was with Powerhouse and I am hacked off with the whole situation and the uncertainty. I will be earning 20% less this month than I did last month, but I am not prepared to risk bankruptcy by going PSC.

I have been reading all the articles on here, ITContractor and Shout99. My agency attended a lawspeed seminar last week and they confirmed that even accounting practices could be caught.

SJD, NW, 360, Brooksons & JSA are all on their list of probable MSCs and we have been advised to avoid you.

[simondolan]

gosh, its like the charge of the Light Brigade, here come SJD and NW claiming exemptions because they are merely providing accounting services.

Gentlemen, you are wrong, you are exempted from the exemption because a discernable part of your business is the promotion of MSCs. Please don't insult us by claiming that promoting a pay calculator demonstrating how much tax is saved by tax-motivated incorporation is a 'normal' service provided by an accounting practics and, of course, you cannot claim that your web site is one that a normal accounting practice would publish.

You need to read the giant press release - at least the light has dawned with them. You are placing all your PSC clients in a perilous position. I thought giant were bad but they don't show the level of arrogance you display.

Beware SJD and NW are both MSC Providers under the new legislation.

Beerbarrel - what is your qualification which makes you an authority, indeed such an authority that you can disagree with all major accountancy firms in our arena, the PCG and the Treasury?

[AnotherIan]

gosh, its like the charge of the Light Brigade, here come SJD and NW claiming exemptions because they are merely providing accounting services.

Gentlemen, you are wrong, you are exempted from the exemption because a discernable part of your business is the promotion of MSCs. Please don't insult us by claiming that promoting a pay calculator demonstrating how much tax is saved by tax-motivated incorporation is a 'normal' service provided by an accounting practics and, of course, you cannot claim that your web site is one that a normal accounting practice would publish.

You need to read the giant press release - at least the light has dawned with them. You are placing all your PSC clients in a perilous position. I thought giant were bad but they don't show the level of arrogance you display.

Beware SJD and NW are both MSC Providers under the new legislation.

Would you please consider punctuation. Forgive the vitriol, I don't disagree with you, but I like to inhale while reading. I fully understand where you're coming from though. Why the hell does no one know what our current position is? I'm planning on expanding the services I provide but that will require cash and that cash will come from my existing contract. I'm hacked off and desperately unhappy about the entire situation.
Right, off to check the PCG website again to see if some genius has figured out where the hell I stand.

To Gordon, you're a four letter word beginning with c and more importantly a 7 letter word beginning with h and ending in istory. The scary thing is I have no idea and no way of knowing if your successor will be any better. I'll chance it. That is the extent of my ire.

[Robot]

Beerbarrel

Gentlemen, you are wrong, you are exempted from the exemption because a discernable part of your business is the promotion of MSCs. Please don't insult us by claiming that promoting a pay calculator demonstrating how much tax is saved by tax-motivated incorporation is a 'normal' service provided by an accounting practics and, of course, you cannot claim that your web site is one that a normal accounting practice would publish.

Beerbarrel - out of curiosity, what did your new accountant advise you to do Re the new company structure?

I just wonder what is so radically different now from the previous structure you had under Giant.

Robot

[beerbarrel]

gosh, its like the charge of the Light Brigade, here come SJD and NW claiming exemptions because they are merely providing accounting services.

Gentlemen, you are wrong, you are exempted from the exemption because a discernable part of your business is the promotion of MSCs. Please don't insult us by claiming that promoting a pay calculator demonstrating how much tax is saved by tax-motivated incorporation is a 'normal' service provided by an accounting practics and, of course, you cannot claim that your web site is one that a normal accounting practice would publish.

You need to read the giant press release - at least the light has dawned with them. You are placing all your PSC clients in a perilous position. I thought giant were bad but they don't show the level of arrogance you display.

Beware SJD and NW are both MSC Providers under the new legislation.

[Waldorf]

Look it up but they are no longer legal from 6th april so you need to either go ltd or with a brolly

[jools]

What is an MSC and why is that bad for me?

[simondolan]

Interesting, didn't realise SJD weren't ICAEW regulated.

They give the impression that they are the font of all knowledge on this site, how many of their accountants are PCG (QA) accredited, bet its only 1!!!!

Check with the PCG Joel, you'll find all our offices are accredited by the PCG.

Unlike your Company which is not accredited at all.