Reply to: Agency won't pay full invoice value

[Not So Wise]

If you went to court they would say well here is a timesheet with your sig on saying you agree to 13.5, not 14. Case dismissed

Actually I would doubt the judge see it that clear cut, the change would be obvious, there would be no sig/initial from the contractor next to the change, thus judge would easyly accept change was made AFTER the contractor had signed and without his knowledge. Judge would do one of two things then.

Invalidate the change and force client to accept 14 hours (unlikely)
Disregard the timesheet in regards to that half day (more likely) and base his judgement on other factors

[oraclesmith]

Maybe. But before acting, a good businessman would add up the cost of their time dealing with the matter, add on any potential legal fees, add on overheads (travel to court, paperwork, postage etc), calculate the likelihood of winning their case, review how much they've allowed in the accounts for bad debts and then compare that with what they're likely to get back if successful. Then make a decision.

Bad debt is a fact of life for most small businesses and in my opinion you should have got what you could (13.5 days) rather than take the risk of not getting paid at all.

Well done though. Do you know what changed their minds?

[NewCon4]

Just to update anyone who may have read the thread and was interested in knowing the outcome...

The agency have now paid the oustanding amount - some 3 months late - but a bit of persistence has pursuaded them. A director got involvoled and said that he would rather go to court than pay money not owed, and I explained that I was of the same mind set (although opposite in this occasion, as I believe the money was owed).
Something changed his mind however, which saved us both a few hours in court.

Lessons have been learnt by both sides I think.

[Sockpuppet]

Most contractors would put in a bit extra here and there anyway, especially on a daily rate. "Making up time" is a bit permie-ish imo, you've either worked a half or a full day or you haven't. Are you claiming that you worked a half day one day, but a day and a half in another?

Could be but there are times when I have worked a day that lasted 30 seconds, check e-mail no movement from developer so wait for them.

Not to say that I didnt take those hours in lieu from my company so when my Ltd was busier the week after becasue it had more work on the handsome and dashing Managing Director asked me to do more hours

[Robwg]

Well, yes I can be arsed. If £150 fell out of your wallet a mile back down the road, would you not turn round and see if you could recover it? - this may not be the same, but for me, its the principle of the thing. I know I did the hours, and I know in this case what the agency commission was on my earnings.

Well - you clearly couldn't be 'arsed' enough to get your timesheet properly signed etc. in your presence so you have brought this on yourself a little bit.

Still - good luck with the court case.

[DS23]

[QUOTE=meridian] Most contractors would put in a bit extra here and there anyway, especially on a daily rate. "Making up time" is a bit permie-ish imo, you've either worked a half or a full day or you haven't. Are you claiming that you worked a half day one day, but a day and a half in another? QUOTE]

interesting discussion. i tend to just fit in with the time scales used by each client.

client n-3 specified a weekly total and most contractors crammed two massive days to get a "free" friday - i did likewise. good deal - i try to repeat when i can.

client n-2 was run by a "systems integrator" and the robots all did monster 14 hour working days - i did likewise. job was in the sticks - there was nowhere to go and anyway it's all about building a buisiness. right?

current client has an 8 hour that the permies follow tightly but i don't do likewise - i try to get earlier and leave later. keeps the locals happy.

i remember well fighting your one day figure but with two noughts added on the end. now that was stressful. chase up half a day? jeeze. gimme a break...

[Ardesco]

I await the post describing your day in court with trepidation

[meridian]

Well, yes I can be arsed. If £150 fell out of your wallet a mile back down the road, would you not turn round and see if you could recover it? - this may not be the same, but for me, its the principle of the thing. I know I did the hours, and I know in this case what the agency commission was on my earnings.

I was contracted for "Days", and haven't even negotiated half-daily rates - nor did the client or the agency ask me what half a day would cost them.

I did make the time up the following Friday when I left after 4pm - bearing in mind I had a verbal agreement with the client that my hours were flexibile due to long travel distances. My current client are also happy with this arrangement as long as hours are completed.

If you were contracted for "Days", how did working an extra couple of hours manage to make this up? Surely any extra time would still fall under the current "Day" that you were charging for anyway?

Most contractors would put in a bit extra here and there anyway, especially on a daily rate. "Making up time" is a bit permie-ish imo, you've either worked a half or a full day or you haven't. Are you claiming that you worked a half day one day, but a day and a half in another?

I will go to court if it isn't paid - and I'll share my experiences. If I learn a lesson - well - I'm old enough to have to pay for my education!

Fair enough, I guess if after reading all of this thread you're still prepared to go to court then nothing's going to change your mind!

[NewCon4]

Well, yes I can be arsed. If £150 fell out of your wallet a mile back down the road, would you not turn round and see if you could recover it? - this may not be the same, but for me, its the principle of the thing. I know I did the hours, and I know in this case what the agency commission was on my earnings.

I was contracted for "Days", and haven't even negotiated half-daily rates - nor did the client or the agency ask me what half a day would cost them.

I did make the time up the following Friday when I left after 4pm - bearing in mind I had a verbal agreement with the client that my hours were flexibile due to long travel distances. My current client are also happy with this arrangement as long as hours are completed.

I will go to court if it isn't paid - and I'll share my experiences. If I learn a lesson - well - I'm old enough to have to pay for my education!

[Robwg]

I agree you are getting f*cked over here - mainly over the client changing your timesheet before they signed it (which is illegal isn't it)?

Then again - you should have made sure he signed it in your presence before you left and had it out with them then over this issue.

Bottom line is - 200 quid? Can you really be arsed? I couldn't.

Live and learn.

[XperTest]

Facts are:

a) you did not work a full day yet claimed it and in your defence all you can do is point to other contractors leaving even earlier;
b) you claimed for 13,5 days and got paid for 13,5 days
c) you don't have a cat's chance in hell of getting the extra 0,5 day through court as explained by Ardesco
d) by still attempting to do so you will piss of your client and the EB
e) contracting is a small world, hence d) might well come back to haunt you one day in the future

It doesn't make sense businesswise, financially or even for your personal state of mind to chase this up. I would feel bad for you if you had indeed worked the full day and was bullied into saying that you didn't, but you more or less admit (by not answering questions) that you did not compensate for leaving early, so you don't get my sympathy and I suggest you look at it as a lesson learned the hard way.

[Joe Black]

If it is my last day at a gig i make damn sure I know when the person who signs my timesheet is going to leave and make sure they sign it before I go. If I have to wait around an extra 2 hours to get it signed I will (and i'll invoice the client as it is my time they are wasting). If worst comes to worst i'll go back in the next moday and get it signed.

Ardesco, if you contract enough years, the phrase "best laid plan of mice and men" etc is something you should know.

I've spent whole afternoons, not just 2 hours, waiting to get a time sheet signed, where no-one seemed to know where manager A or B was, or they were expected in but both are off sick. Sure I'm going to go back in and drive two hours south of where I live on Monday morning while my new contract starting that same day is two hours north, or maybe in a completely different country...

My point as stated is not whether he should/should not be paid for the hours, or whether it's a a good idea to go to the SCC, it's simply questioning why you or anyone should think just because someone didn't manage to get a timesheet signed on their last day it's their fault and they deserve it.

[Ardesco]

Come on guys, what planet are you on?

If you've worked enough contracts then you will well know know that there are times when there is no-one around to sign a timesheet, no matter how long you hang round, and you end up having to make a choice of leaving it with someone else.

If it is my last day at a gig i make damn sure I know when the person who signs my timesheet is going to leave and make sure they sign it before I go. If I have to wait around an extra 2 hours to get it signed I will (and i'll invoice the client as it is my time they are wasting). If worst comes to worst i'll go back in the next moday and get it signed, I wouldn't leave it with somebody else as I don't know if they are going to fiddle my figures or not.

Whether NewCon4 is reasonable in leaving early, making up the hours, or what his/her terms of contract were is another issue. But what you're more or less saying is that if you leave an invoice with someone, because that's more or less what a timesheet is, it's ok if they cross out a few figures and reduce it from X to Y just because you weren't there to force them to sign the cheque.

I'm not saying it is OK for them to do it, i'm saying tulip happens and you should expect it to happen. I am also saying that for the amount of money we are talking about it is not worth going to all this trouble. What are we talking £150? £200 max ?

It will cost you more than that in lost earnings, travel to court, time spent preparing your case, time appealing the decision when it goes against you. You will be substantially down at the end of the day.

When you go to court the agency will produce the following:

A Timesheet for 13.5 days signed by YOU and the client
An invoice for 13.5 days sent to the agency by YOU
Proof that they were paid for 13.5 days by thier client
Proof that they paid you for 13.5 days

What will you present?

A story about how you think you should have got an extra half day with no signed proof from any external party that you are entitled to it, in fact no evidence at all?

If you were the judge looking at the available evidence (note that evidence is a big thing in court) would you award the case to some guy moaning that he wants an extra £150-£200 even though he can't prove that he is entitled to it, or would you throw the case out?

I know what I would do....

If you want to take it to court, waste your time and money and burn all your bridges with the client and the agency go for it. More fool you.

Put your business hat on and work out the figures and you will see that the most sensible and cost effective option is to walk away.

[Sockpuppet]

A few people have said now to "take it on the chin" or terms there of. By my calculations though - even if I lose a days pay in recovering the money - then I will be no worse off than if I just write the debt off - obviously I would have to win the claim, but in my opinion it is a fair claim. I've already stated that I wasn't the first contractor to leave early that day - 2 had left by 1pm. My mistake was perhaps having the decency to inform the client!

We've mostly advised against SCC. If you want to then that is your party.

However... you opinion is not nessecelary law. My opinion is that speed limits need to be 90 on motorways.

Just becuase other contractors leave early doesnt mean you do. Different contractors different rules. If they jumped off a cliff would you and all that...

[Sockpuppet]

My last agency wouldnt accept expenses unless on an offical form signed...I had a letterhead signed.

GIMP / Photoshop are great tools for forging. Plus it was faxed in.

As long as the amts stayed the same I dont see the harm.