Reply to: New Limited Company - first year end

[FK1]

Only an idiot would think you pay an accountant just for Excel work and filing returns.
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I am an idiot. I really think I have paid for 6 years just for my Excel work and their automated compiling.

It could attract attention in the OPs case, as he clearly does not know what he is doing. As I said accounting descrepancies can lead to an IR35 investigation, this is a typical way of HMRC getting their "in".
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I'm not "afraid" of anything, would I rather not have the cost, loss of income and general hassle of an investigation?
No brainer, even for you, right?

It is your choice and it is brainy for you in your situation. Nobody disputes your choice. But there is no one solution for everyone's business. There are options. All of them are feasible.

1. Pay monthly for the accounting services
___1.1. with Excel spreadsheet (90x horror).
___1.2. with included bookkeeping software (21st century).

2. Pay one-time for the END-YEAR.
___2.1. with your Excel spreadsheet (not cheaper than monthly option).
___2.2. with your bookkeeping software (you might find attractive offers).

3. DIY
___3.1. manually, online (dangerous if not checked and reviewed).
___3.2. with software (might be OK if gently and no complications).

[MrMarkyMark]

Yes, it might attract more attention.

It could attract attention in the OPs case, as he clearly does not know what he is doing. As I said accounting descrepancies can lead to an IR35 investigation, this is a typical way of HMRC getting their "in".

They use something to prevent mistakes and errors.

Whether they use software or not is fairly immaterial, mine do a lot more for me than just the year end accounts. I also, usually, get answers to any queries, within 2 hours.
Maybe you should go the whole hog and write your own software to achieve the same .

If you are afraid of an IR35 investigation and abstract yourself fully from your accounting then you are a LTD Contractor rather than a business.

I'm not "afraid" of anything, would I rather not have the cost, loss of income and general hassle of an investigation?
No brainer, even for you, right?

[LondonManc]

Only an idiot would think you pay an accountant just for Excel work and filing returns.

You're buying their knowledge on how to maximise your revenue and to keep a sound legal footing. If you want to do that off your own back in your own free time then that's entirely up to you but I have better things to do with my personal time.

[FK1]

There are some convenient services on a market for savvy contractors. You might get your accounting for less than £500 per year getting more comfort and control. It is not suitable for all, of course. Just for those (greedy ones and losers) who care about every shekel and every minute spend. I am not advertising it.

"Times are changing and the need to pop along to the accountant's office at the end of the year is fast becoming a thing of the past for accounts savvy freelancers and small businesses. Keeping the accounts up to date during the year and meeting the payroll & VAT deadlines is easy with ********* but maybe you'd like just a little support from a qualified accountant at the year end to review what you've done and file those pesky end of year returns and accounts. Our Review and File service does exactly that! For a one off fee of just £99 plus VAT we will review your ********* accounts and tax calculations prior to filing, raise any appropriate issues with you for resolution and, once resolved, file the accounts and tax returns at Companies House and HMRC. Along with using the ********* software, this great service should give you peace of mind with your accounts and tax responsibilities."

[FK1]

...Quite honestly it looks like you're trolling and not putting any sensible points or questions forwards.

My apologies if it smelled as trolling. The point was about some tools they use. They avoid mistakes and errors mostly because of the relevant software.

If everything is standard and clear then it just about data entry from bookkeeping software to accounts production software. That latter thing compiles the accounts and typically send it electronically.

It does not mean I advice do not use accountants or trying to shake people who do not care about the accounting costs. It would be then like an advice to create a web-site or change your car battery/engine oil on your own.

But we always will have people that would prefer to create a web-site or service a car on their own for whatever dumb reason And a key to success is the proper tools.

[TykeMerc]

Very correct. But what makes accountants' work looking as done with "professional experience and skills"? How do they manage to avoid mistakes and errors?

They might spend just two hours to compile your statutory accounts. For what they spend that time? What actually they do?

I don't actually care in the slightest what they do, so long as my submissions are correct and if they screw up it's their professional liability that covers me. I pay for and get a competent skilled service and advice, it costs me about 2 days of billing for the year which is less time than it would take me to do my accounts let alone the research to answer the questions I occasionally put.

Quite honestly it looks like you're trolling and not putting any sensible points or questions forwards.

[FK1]

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The reality is that we're not talking about brain surgery or rocket science here (although I've worked with more than a few of the latter on a contract), but the professional experience and skills can be a big help and for the cost quite frankly it's rational at least to me to pay for an accountant especially at year end.

Very correct. But what makes accountants' work looking as done with "professional experience and skills"? How do they manage to avoid mistakes and errors?

They might spend just two hours to compile your statutory accounts. For what they spend that time? What actually they do?

[TykeMerc]

Sure Accountants make mistakes, but as a customer you are protected by their insurances and professional memberships in addition to their professional experience.

Certainly it's quite possible for anyone with reasonable intelligence and a willingness to do the relevant research to do the work of the average contractor accountant, but in truth that's true for the vast majority of the work we as contractors do. I'm a lousy coder, but I can code, it takes me a lot longer than it would take a good coder of course and I don't have the experience to spot the best solution.
I'm a very experienced PM, I'm comfortable handling people, problems, risks, plans and budgets, but I imagine 95% of the people who work for me on projects could do what I do, they may not do it as well and the clients may not have confidence that the projects are under control, but the job could get done.

The reality is that we're not talking about brain surgery or rocket science here (although I've worked with more than a few of the latter on a contract), but the professional experience and skills can be a big help and for the cost quite frankly it's rational at least to me to pay for an accountant especially at year end.

[FK1]

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You do realise that an IR35 investigation could be kicked off for due to attaining this "valuable experience"?
Might be a late VAT payment, an accounting discrepancy, to take a couple of examples.
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"£400+ pd IT contractor pretending to be a business."
What's that meant to mean? Or are you just pretending to be a troll?

Yes, it might attract more attention. But why the professional accountants are more reliable? What makes them "errors-proof"? Their experience and knowledge? I do not think so, they are also humans. They use something to prevent mistakes and errors.

If you are afraid of an IR35 investigation and abstract yourself fully from your accounting then you are a LTD Contractor rather than a business. Yes, I am trolling a bit here.

Not every contractor/LTD is a £400+ pd IT contractor working 9+ months every year.
Sometimes it is a quite rational to control your business fully and delegate your own duties to someone else for commercial reasons only. But not because a director afraid of that.

[LondonManc]

Paradoxically time to spend the same (except the first time), it is more about the comfort zone.

And someone may enjoy his/her independence. It might be even rational if you have a few LTDs or real start-up like amazon shop with just hundreds of pounds in profit rather than £400+ pd IT contractor pretending to be a business.

What's that meant to mean? Or are you just pretending to be a troll?

[MrMarkyMark]

I think Captain has the right to do his own errors and he will manage them step by step.

Very true, his business / pretend business, it is up to him to manage his risk, correct.

Maybe resources consuming and even risky (fines, time, frustration) but this is valuable experience.

Great.

You do realise that an IR35 investigation could be kicked off for due to attaining this "valuable experience"?
Might be a late VAT payment, an accounting discrepancy, to take a couple of examples.

[Contreras]

1. Companies House annual return - completed
2. Complete all PAYE requirements for tax year 14/15 as an employer (I'm actually due money from HRMC so I think I can claim this and record it as income for 14/15 year?)
3. Record all income and expenses from first day of company to the end of first accounting period - maintained on a simple excel
4. Complete company tax return on HMRC's website
5. File Companies House annual accounts (same as number 3? or will I need to purchase 'tagging' software for this to be completed?)
6. Work out the post tax dividend and pay this to shareholders (not quite sure what is involved here yet)
7. Complete HMRC's self assessment as an employee and director recording salary and dividend received.

I do 1, 2, 3, 6 & 7, myself, and have done since my first year. The accountant does 4 & 5.

You've missed the fact that for 5 the accounts must first be compiled (typically by an accountant). No, it's not the same as 3!, and that you even asked would perhaps suggest that going it alone is not a good idea just yet.

My accountant works from the raw data (a spreadsheet like in your case) at year end and compiles the annual accounts. I produce accounts myself as well, independently, as an exercise to prove I understand the beast I'm legally responsible for. Each year there is a discrepancy, and almost without exception it's my error, but it does mean I never sign off the accounts without understanding them to the last penny.

I was probably at a similar point as you towards the end of (a very hectic) first year. I had no intention of attempting the formal accounts myself so I found an accountant that was happy to do the EOY stuff and help point me in the right direction for PAYE/VAT, etc. and answer the odd question through the year.

A few things you may not have considered and which I didn't spot elsewhere in the thread:

- VAT, flat rate scheme: Ironically perhaps, the 'profit' from this on a typical contractor turnover would pay for a year's worth of accounting fees, and you may have missed out on that.

- P11D: A bureaucratic nonsense that seems to confuse most people when first faced with it.

- HMRC Basic PAYE Tools software: might be easier than using the web portal. Also paying salary annually (and notifying HRMC of this) would save some admin.

- Free Agent: some people use this instead of a spreadsheet. It has the advantage that your accountant can use the numbers directly, plus it gives a rolling calculation of the dividend that can be taken. Personally I use a spreadsheet to do the same.

Finally it's possible to DIY much of the work but do not consider this simply to reduce fees. Ignore that at your peril.

[Contreras]

You're aware that under RTI yiu need to dealing with PAYE returns on a monthly basis?

No it doesn't have to be monthly.

For a one-man-band handling their own PAYE it makes sense to pay the £10k as a lump sum annually and deal with RTI in a single hit.

[TykeMerc]

As people have said, ultimately it's your call as the owner of YourCo Ltd if you want to do this stuff solo or to pay for a professional service from an accountant.

Personally I feel that the roughly £1200 I shell out a year as a deductible company expense is worth the lack of hassle, good advice and assurance that the submitted numbers are correct.

[FK1]

TBH, my time is better speant enjoying what I earn, rather than saving a few shekels, on accountancy, then spending the time doing it myself.
YMMV.

Paradoxically time to spend the same (except the first time), it is more about the comfort zone.

And someone may enjoy his/her independence. It might be even rational if you have a few LTDs or real start-up like amazon shop with just hundreds of pounds in profit rather than £400+ pd IT contractor pretending to be a business.