"HMRC will stand by the result given"

[RonBW]

Yet.

And when HMRC announce the change in the data format then we'll see that there might be a possibility of what you describe happening.

I'm not saying that it's not going to happen at some stage in the future, but at the moment it is impossible for HMRC to say "you are doing the same job" without investigating everyone because they do not have the details of the job.

[youngguy]

So this brings us to...where we have been all along. We pay our insurances, do the ESS (used to be BET) but HMRC will still look on a case by case basis and case law will decide. This might be the most embarrassing attempt at IR35 yet!

[RonBW]

So this brings us to...where we have been all along. We pay our insurances, do the ESS (used to be BET) but HMRC will still look on a case by case basis and case law will decide. This might be the most embarrassing attempt at IR35 yet!

It's only embarrassing for those that claim they are outside IR35; for those that the tool deems to be inside IR35 (or where the client makes a bulk decision to push them down that route) then it's not an embarrassment at all.

[LondonManc]

It's only embarrassing for those that claim they are outside IR35; for those that the tool deems to be inside IR35 (or where the client makes a bulk decision to push them down that route) then it's not an embarrassment at all.

+1

This is far from embarrassing; this is a coup for HMRC that they'll only get away with in the public sector. However, it will be a net loss for UK plc because for the taxes collected, you have to consider the alternative; either UK consultancies charging UK plc more to do the same job or bob consultancies taking the money paid back to the sub-continent. HMRC won't care until someone does the maths and realises the almighty crapfest that we've been left with.

[WordIsBond]

However, it will be a net loss for UK plc because for the taxes collected, you have to consider the alternative; either UK consultancies charging UK plc more to do the same job or bob consultancies taking the money paid back to the sub-continent. HMRC won't care until someone does the maths and realises the almighty crapfest that we've been left with.

That's only true if they roll it out to the private sector.

If it stays a public sector matter only, it's a boon for UK plc. It gives them a huge competitive advantage over the public sector in engaging contractors. Simple economics -- prices are going up for the public sector for contractors (because some, at least, will look to be compensated for the extra taxes. Since the number of contractors won't be changing much, prices will go down for the private sector.

[LondonManc]

That's only true if they roll it out to the private sector.

If it stays a public sector matter only, it's a boon for UK plc. It gives them a huge competitive advantage over the public sector in engaging contractors. Simple economics -- prices are going up for the public sector for contractors (because some, at least, will look to be compensated for the extra taxes. Since the number of contractors won't be changing much, prices will go down for the private sector.

That doesn't follow, given the anecdotal evidence of the number of contractors leaving.

[youngguy]

It's only embarrassing for those that claim they are outside IR35; for those that the tool deems to be inside IR35 (or where the client makes a bulk decision to push them down that route) then it's not an embarrassment at all.

Fair point. I guess they are banking on PS not wanting the risk and answering Qs as they would like things.

It's unlike HMRC to be this 'strategic'....

[WordIsBond]

That doesn't follow, given the anecdotal evidence of the number of contractors leaving.

Leaving the private sector?

I'm hearing about people leaving the public sector, but that just means more contractors for the private sector to choose from. So supply and demand will kick in.

[LondonManc]

Leaving the private sector?

I'm hearing about people leaving the public sector, but that just means more contractors for the private sector to choose from. So supply and demand will kick in.

Ah, I think we're at crossed purposes; I was talking about contractors leaving the public sector.

Supply and demand is subjective - many in the private sector will have no option but to stay there. Many skills simply aren't portable. I'd imagine that if HMRC declared that there would categorically be no retrospective tax grab then there wouldn't be the exodus; the only issue you'd have is those that have significant expenses not being able to stay in roles due to the double whammy of IR35 and its associated lack of ability to claim T&S expenses.

[northernladyuk]

you couldn't make it up, so what was the goal of the tool in the first place?

To sow doubt and confusion.