Murray Group (Rangers) tax case - decision today?

[jbryce]

I think some of the users who have used dodgy schemes keep clinging to some vain hope that all the scheme providers will keep appealing and eventually win in some court.

Errr. This case makes pretty much no difference to most Contractor EBTs as far as HMRC are concerned - it's confused most specialists and, to be brutal, isn't going to stop APNs even if they do appeal and win. Each scheme will, eventually, be judged on its merit, or otherwise.

[minestrone]

It can be appealed, and no, there is no need for anyone having perverted the course of justice. No idea where you are getting this stuff from.

This is now being openly stated on sites by followers of the case who are usually accurate. This link is one of many to report that there is no right to appeal

https://johnjamessite.wordpress.com/...tax-avoidance/

I seriously doubt DBO would appeal anyway. All the companies are gone now, the creditors probably don't expect to see any of the money, everyone will just want it done and dusted.

[webberg]

This is now being openly stated on sites by followers of the case who are usually accurate. This link is one of many to report that there is no right to appeal

https://johnjamessite.wordpress.com/...tax-avoidance/

I seriously doubt DBO would appeal anyway. All the companies are gone now, the creditors probably don't expect to see any of the money, everyone will just want it done and dusted.

I would, with respect, disagree with the blogger in the above link.

An application for appeal is usually made to the Court who made the decision. They can decide whether to permit an appeal or not.

If they do, then the case advances.

If they do not, the taxpayer (in this instance) can petition the Supreme Court directly.

The Supreme Court judges will then decide if they want to hear the appeal.

If they do, a date is set.

If they choose not to, that is usually the end of the road subject to possible JR of that decision or perhaps EU intervention.

[minestrone]

To be honest I don't know, IANAL and this is the Scottish legal system, the person involved in that blog pertains to be a rangers fan and has usually been very accurate with inside information coming from boardroom level.

I could actually ask someone who would certainly know, but I'll wait till the 28 days are up before asking their views.

I will say again and for the last time that they lost this because they had contracts of employment under which the EBT monies were to be paid. The infamous 'side letters'.

[jbryce]

To be honest I don't know, IANAL and this is the Scottish legal system, the person involved in that blog pertains to be a rangers fan and has usually been very accurate with inside information coming from boardroom level.

I could actually ask someone who would certainly know, but I'll wait till the 28 days are up before asking their views.

I will say again and for the last time that they lost this because they had contracts of employment under which the EBT monies were to be paid. The infamous 'side letters'.

Being a Rangers fan does not necessarily confer knowledge of the Legal system. If you read the rest of his blog you will note that his insights could be picked up from the media pretty easily. For the avoidance of doubt I am not a Celtic fan.

From a contractor EBT perspective, if you're hoping that has dealt a death blow to the arrangements that I, and others, stupidly joined then I'm afraid you'll be very dissapointed. That day may come, but it's not today.

[minestrone]

Being a Rangers fan does not necessarily confer knowledge of the Legal system. If you read the rest of his blog you will note that his insights could be picked up from the media pretty easily. For the avoidance of doubt I am not a Celtic fan.


From a contractor EBT perspective, if you're hoping that has dealt a death blow to the arrangements that I, and others, stupidly joined then I'm afraid you'll be very dissapointed. That day may come, but it's not today.

I seriously and honestly could not give two flying fooks about your anyone's EBT system.

Rangers got liquidated by not paying their VAT.

[minestrone]

I realise that this is a bit of a problem here for a lot of you but a word of advice is that you cant make the issue go away by screaming and shouting at anyone that comes near you with reasonable information on a specific case that you simply will not try to understand.

[jbryce]

I realise that this is a bit of a problem here for a lot of you but a word of advice is that you cant make the issue go away by screaming and shouting at anyone that comes near you with reasonable information on a specific case that you simply will not try to understand.

We (the lot of us you refer to), do take proper grown up advice, but not from a Rangers radge (Scottish vernacular). I don't think we're shouting or screaming particularly - we're just getting on with dealing with it.

I just don't agree with your learned analysis, I'm sorry if that has upset you. There's a pretty good analysis here, it's obvious slightly different to your view, but that's life - we can't agree on everything.

[webberg]

I realise that this is a bit of a problem here for a lot of you but a word of advice is that you cant make the issue go away by screaming and shouting at anyone that comes near you with reasonable information on a specific case that you simply will not try to understand.

"Reasonable information" is always welcome and is better if validated by reference to named statute or administrative process.

Information from an anonymous source is necessarily of lesser value and the line between speculation and genuine insight is impossible to draw.

In particular I was perplexed by your statement that there needed to be some form of "perverting the course of justice" if an appeal was to be made. I'm not a lawyer but I suggest that such action is a criminal act.

Taxation is a civil matter unless it strays into fraud and evasion.

I've never seen or heard of a tax appeal being refused or accepted because of alleged criminal action as the tax process has its own rules and do not include or require anything other than due process.

[minestrone]

We (the lot of us you refer to), do take proper grown up advice, but not from a Rangers radge (Scottish vernacular). I don't think we're shouting or screaming particularly - we're just getting on with dealing with it.

I just don't agree with your learned analysis, I'm sorry if that has upset you. There's a pretty good analysis here, it's obvious slightly different to your view, but that's life - we can't agree on everything.

I quoted the article on the previous page in case you haven't read anything I have been writing. It completely misses the fundamental core issue that the players had 2 contracts of employment, one for PAYE and one for the EBT.

You are all barking at the moon if you cant see why the EBT was taxable PAYE when there was an agreed contract of employment to go along with it.