Resisting the APN - how - why - other questions

[WalterWhite]

You can make a representation against it if it has been incorrectly issued. Once it has been established it has been correctly issued then there is no appeal.

You arguing that it can be appealed if incorrectly issued is missing the point IMO.

Hi Dylan,

There are plenty of schemes out there that aren't/weren't DOTAS registered. If this is the case then HMRC have to issue a Follower Notice in order to issue an APN. If they do issue an APN then it can be appealed.

It is highly likely that there are users out there who didnt disclose a DOTAS/SRN number on their tax return.

Ultimately if Webberg is going to be managing a group that looks after users of multiple schemes he may well have people join that used non-DOTAS registered schemes and that have been issued APN's. They should not be told that an APN cannot be appealed as this is incorrect.

[WalterWhite]

I think you may be right in saying that for schemes that were not DOTAS notifiable and have not been caught by GARR, then an APN can only be given if a Follower Notice exists.

You could then appeal on the basis that the process has not been followed correctly.

But at the moment, the vast majority of APNs (possibly all of them so far?) have been for DOTAS schemes and for them there is no appeal.

See my reply above explaining my reasoning

[MercladUK]

Nor does the original poster saying so.

Here you go:

219Circumstances in which an accelerated payment notice may be given

(1)HMRC may give a notice (an “accelerated payment notice”) to a person (“P”) if Conditions A to C are met.
(2)Condition A is that—
(a)a tax enquiry is in progress into a return or claim made by P in relation to a relevant tax, or
(b)P has made a tax appeal (by notifying HMRC or otherwise) in relation to a relevant tax but that appeal has not yet been—
(i)determined by the tribunal or court to which it is addressed, or
(ii)abandoned or otherwise disposed of.
(3)Condition B is that the return or claim or, as the case may be, appeal is made on the basis that a particular tax advantage (“the asserted advantage”) results from particular arrangements (“the chosen arrangements”).
(4)Condition C is that one or more of the following requirements are met—
(a)HMRC has given (or, at the same time as giving the accelerated payment notice, gives) P a follower notice under Chapter 2—
(i)in relation to the same return or claim or, as the case may be, appeal, and
(ii)by reason of the same tax advantage and the chosen arrangements;
(b)the chosen arrangements are DOTAS arrangements;
(c)a GAAR counteraction notice has been given in relation to the asserted advantage or part of it and the chosen arrangements (or is so given at the same time as the accelerated payment notice) in a case where the stated opinion of at least two of the members of the sub-panel of the GAAR Advisory Panel which considered the matter under paragraph 10 of Schedule 43 to FA 2013 was as set out in paragraph 11(3)(b) of that Schedule (entering into tax arrangements not reasonable course of action etc).
(5)“DOTAS arrangements” means—
(a)notifiable arrangements to which HMRC has allocated a reference number under section 311 of FA 2004,
(b)notifiable arrangements implementing a notifiable proposal where HMRC has allocated a reference number under that section to the proposed notifiable arrangements, or
(c)arrangements in respect of which the promoter must provide prescribed information under section 312(2) of that Act by reason of the arrangements being substantially the same as notifiable arrangements within paragraph (a) or (b).
(6)But the notifiable arrangements within subsection (5) do not include arrangements in relation to which HMRC has given notice under section 312(6) of FA 2004 (notice that promoters not under duty imposed to notify client of reference number).
(7)“GAAR counteraction notice” means a notice under paragraph 12 of Schedule 43 to FA 2013 (notice of final decision to counteract under the general anti-abuse rule).

Walter, if the scenario you state occurred then you would make representations to HMRC and if you are correct, this APN would be withdrawn.

You Cannot Appeal against an APN

[WalterWhite]

Walter, if the scenario you state occurred then you would make representations to HMRC and if you are correct, this APN would be withdrawn.

You Cannot Appeal against an APN

Would we not class "make representations" as the same thing as "appeal" ?

If not then I would suggest adding a section to the original post stating :

"You can make representations against an APN and have it withdrawn"

Unless this point is made known to each and every individual that joins this Big Group then some people will end up paying APN's because they havent been aware of their rights.

[slatt]

Would we not class "make representations" as the same thing as "appeal" ?

If not then I would suggest adding a section to the original post stating :

"You can make representations against an APN and have it withdrawn"

Unless this point is made known to each and every individual that joins this Big Group then some people will end up paying APN's because they havent been aware of their rights.

I believe that "make representations" means asking HMRC to go back and check they have followed the correct procedure and "appeal" means asking a court to make a decision to withdraw the APN.

I do understand what you're saying though, everyone should always check that HMRC have followed correct procedures and withdraw any incorrectly issued APNs, but I don't think that counts as an "appeal" as such....

[WalterWhite]

I believe that "make representations" means asking HMRC to go back and check they have followed the correct procedure and "appeal" means asking a court to make a decision to withdraw the APN.

I do understand what you're saying though, everyone should always check that HMRC have followed correct procedures and withdraw any incorrectly issued APNs, but I don't think that counts as an "appeal" as such....

in that case the second line needs to be inserted clearly.

believe me I am only trying to help here.

My concern is the average contractor who has no idea about any of this logs onto this forum and picks out this thread for example. Now if he has not declared a DOTAS/SRN number and reads this thread he would (IMO) come away from it thinking he cannot appeal (or have withdrawn) the APN.

Given that lots of schemes havent been DOTAS registered for a while and since 2012 hardly any have I would suggest that the numbers that frequent the forums without these numbers will increase.

If the BIG GROUP is to represent everyone then it needs to do just that.

[MercladUK]

Walter

I think if you read the many many posts that Webberg has made on the matter of APN's he states quite clearly what to check to ascertain that they are valid APN's.

YOU CANNOT APPEAL AN APN!!

[WalterWhite]

Walter

I think if you read the many many posts that Webberg has made on the matter of APN's he states quite clearly what to check to ascertain that they are valid APN's.

YOU CANNOT APPEAL AN APN!!

I haven't had the time or opportunity to read through all of his posts.

I would suggest that any newby would also not read through every post he has made and may well just read this thread/post, which imo is misleading

Not everybody has used a DOTAS Scheme, if he is going to operate a Big Group catering for all schemes it must do just that

I'm not really sure what you are failing to grasp here?

[MercladUK]

I haven't had the time or opportunity to read through all of his posts.

I would suggest that any newby would also not read through every post he has made and may well just read this thread/post, which imo is misleading

Not everybody has used a DOTAS Scheme, if he is going to operate a Big Group catering for all schemes it must do just that

I'm not really sure what you are failing to grasp here?

well if you have not bothered to read up about a subject and then are publicly declaring a 'tax expert' that he is wrong then I find this quite strange behaviour. The Big Group will try and encompass many of the common schemes as has been stated in the Big Group thread. I for one was a member of a Non Dotas registered scheme..

[WalterWhite]

well if you have not bothered to read up about a subject and then are publicly declaring a 'tax expert' that he is wrong then I find this quite strange behaviour. The Big Group will try and encompass many of the common schemes as has been stated in the Big Group thread. I for one was a member of a Non Dotas registered scheme..

i have read up on the subject (just haven't read every thread on this forum as most of the schemes don't apply to me)

I assume you have not been issued with an APN if you were non-dotas registered? Or if you were you have appealed it?