BIG GROUP

[Finalwhistle]

Wouldn’t they still need to have an open enquiry/ assessment as well for it to be considered protected!

it appears not. Their response is it doesn't matter whether they have an open enquiry or not, the year 2014/05 is included as a protected year (and interest will be added). I'll let you know what comes back from tomorrows call. But I shall now be armed with my "what happens after Friday then?".

[Iter]

Wouldn’t they still need to have an open enquiry/ assessment as well for it to be considered protected!

[webberg]

I'd be interested in their answer.

Once we go over this Friday then 2014/15 falls out of the "normal" 4 year discovery window.

[Finalwhistle]

It's not defined by HMRC, it's defined in Taxes Management Act 1970.

The "normal" time limit is that an enquiry has to be raised within 12 months of a return being submitted.

If the return is requested and submitted late, that extends to a year and a quarter.

Discovery assessments can be raised with variously 4 years, 6 years or 20 years of a tax year end depending on the severity of the behaviour that "caused" the late realisation of a potential liability ir under assessment.

Normally we see the 4 year applied.

An enquiry notice has to be delivered within the time limit.

A discovery assessment has to be made (by appearing on HMRC's internal and never to be seen in house record system) before the end of the period. The notice can arrive after the last date.

I just came off the phone with HMRC. They said that any closed (unprotected) years should not have interest added unless it is the year 2014/2015 (or later) which they are including as within the enquiry window (it appears this is being applied generically rather than to specific individuals). I asked them to justify why 2014/2015 is within the (generic) enquiry window and they couldn't give me an answer. They are phoning me back tomorrow to confirm.

[webberg]

thanks.

How is "technically in time for enquiry" defined by HMRC please?

It's not defined by HMRC, it's defined in Taxes Management Act 1970.

The "normal" time limit is that an enquiry has to be raised within 12 months of a return being submitted.

If the return is requested and submitted late, that extends to a year and a quarter.

Discovery assessments can be raised with variously 4 years, 6 years or 20 years of a tax year end depending on the severity of the behaviour that "caused" the late realisation of a potential liability ir under assessment.

Normally we see the 4 year applied.

An enquiry notice has to be delivered within the time limit.

A discovery assessment has to be made (by appearing on HMRC's internal and never to be seen in house record system) before the end of the period. The notice can arrive after the last date.

[Finalwhistle]

HMRC should be able to charge interest ONLY on 2014/15 (because as you say, it is technically still in time for enquiry although the grounds for opening that are now weak).

In Case 2, 14/15 is technically still in time for enquiry and should have interest applied. The later years the same.

thanks.

How is "technically in time for enquiry" defined by HMRC please?

[webberg]

Gents,
probably the wrong thread so apologies...however

I've looked at 2 peoples settlement letters and all are different in how the unprotected years are treated.

Case 1 - 3 years affected: 2012/13, 2013/14, 2014/15. No enquiries. Settlement figures include interest payable on all years.
Case 2 - 6 years affected: as above with 2015/16, 16/17, 17/18. Open enquiry on 2015/16 onwards. Settlement figures include interest payable on all open years (fine), but include one closed year (2014/15) on the basis that it would have been within the enquiry window.

So the guy with all closed years is having to pay interest on all his years.. and the guy with open years is only paying interest on 1 in 3 of his closed years.

Is this just luck of the draw?

With the proviso that your sample population is not statistically significant, in Case 1, HMRC should be able to charge interest ONLY on 2014/15 (because as you say, it is technically still in time for enquiry although the grounds for opening that are now weak). If interest is being charged on earlier periods - challenge it.

In Case 2, 14/15 is technically still in time for enquiry and should have interest applied. The later years the same.

This is just HMRC cock up and you should push back.

[Finalwhistle]

Interest due (Inconsistency)

Gents,
probably the wrong thread so apologies...however

I've looked at 2 peoples settlement letters and all are different in how the unprotected years are treated.

Case 1 - 3 years affected: 2012/13, 2013/14, 2014/15. No enquiries. Settlement figures include interest payable on all years.
Case 2 - 6 years affected: as above with 2015/16, 16/17, 17/18. Open enquiry on 2015/16 onwards. Settlement figures include interest payable on all open years (fine), but include one closed year (2014/15) on the basis that it would have been within the enquiry window.

So the guy with all closed years is having to pay interest on all his years.. and the guy with open years is only paying interest on 1 in 3 of his closed years.

Is this just luck of the draw?

[Boodog]

Please go and look at section 554Z5 and 554Z11.

You may disagree - that is your prerogative, and you may even be correct, but having spoken with a number of tax people and HMRC, I prefer my analysis.

Thanks for this, I very much appreciate your explanation and for pointing me to the relevant sections.

If this is the case, then yes, settlement is the better option (being based on net value of the loans). Having read these sections, I can appreciate now that paying the loan charge can be considered as a ‘payment on account’ to be offset against the earlier years’ charge. Tho have to say it isn’t crystal clear....

[Caveat Lector]

Big Group still taking on members

@webberg apologies for cutting across the thread - I don't have PM, is WTT BG still taking on members? I have spoken to Rhys and was awaiting an indicative calc of my tax bill, but the deadline is approaching...