If you cant pay an APN, would the judge rule in favour of bankruptcy

[flamel]

At the very least there is uncertainty. 7 years now and now end in sight.

It's only two years and a bit for me - and many more years to come by the look of it. I honestly don't know how you've coped.

[webberg]

Welcome back Son-Of-Rob - or should that be FrankenRob (created out of more than one person) or even DracuRob (then man who can never die or be killed ...) :-)

Never mind Webburg - I for one am glad that you are still monitoring these boards and contributing valuable informed advice.

A couple of quick queries, if you have a spare moment:

(1) You said "The above view remains valid." - Did you mean your quote, or my opinion on the judicial process ?

(2) You said a few days ago (on another thread) that "HMRC are currently about two years behind where they wanted to be ..." - can you clarify that ? Do you mean that HMRC are behind in chasing-up tax avoiders, or in their collections processes, or what ?

Thank you for the kind words. I like "Son of Rob" (rather than Rob's b**tard) but will stick with webberg for now.

1. Only my view can I stand by. Your views on the legal side I am not in a position to answer on really.

2. If you look at the history of how HMRC go about challenging "schemes", it runs:

a.Start date is receipt of first tax return with "offensive" scheme.
b. Identify problem and collate internal data - say 6 months to 12 months from start.
c. Call for information - 12 months to perhaps 5 years
d. Consider response - 5 years to 8 years
e. Consider which case to challenge and run litigation - 8 years to 12 years
f. Litigate and win - 12 to 14 years

There is usually an "offer" between d and f.

In the case of contractors, HMRC lost Jones/Garnett and Murray group. therefore I think phase e above has been delayed by 2 years, perhaps more.

[BrilloPad]

It's only two years and a bit for me - and many more years to come by the look of it. I honestly don't know how you've coped.

I have a shrink. The shrink is preparing to write to HMRC.

On the other hand things could be worse. Every scheme provider for the double taxation stuff except Montpelier has closed up. At least they have stood by us. And the head of Montp(WG) has an outstanding record against them! I still think he will win for us - in 5/10 years time!

[flamel]

I have a shrink. The shrink is preparing to write to HMRC.

On the other hand things could be worse. Every scheme provider for the double taxation stuff except Montpelier has closed up. At least they have stood by us. And the head of Montp(WG) has an outstanding record against them! I still think he will win for us - in 5/10 years time!

I need one too - if nothing else just to remind me that they can't take your soul etc. My provider is still around too and is preparing to fight so I know it's a question of toughing it out. I've no real intention of caving in.

[chr16v]

whos ready for insolvancy? Where can they extract the money from?

right then,

you cant pay an APN because your contracting days and financial rewards were part of a bygone era, so HMRC want their money but how are they going to get it?

questions i think are relavent:

- can they force you to sell your famiy home under joint names to release equity?
- can they extract money from your pension?
- can they deduct regular money from your salary at source? (using what type of calculation?)
- can they make you sell any other assets like cars, etc
- what if you are on benfits? that would be interesting !!!

i await your informed feedback

[BrilloPad]

right then,

you cant pay an APN because your contracting days and financial rewards were part of a bygone era, so HMRC want their money but how are they going to get it?

questions i think are relavent:

- can they force you to sell your famiy home under joint names to release equity?
- can they extract money from your pension?
- can they deduct regular money from your salary at source? (using what type of calculation?)
- can they make you sell any other assets like cars, etc
- what if you are on benfits? that would be interesting !!!

i await your informed feedback

Any response is going to be entirely speculation. They can try anything. You can resist and get them to go the bankruptcy route.

1. Family home. There are plenty of precedents for this. So they probably can. If there are minors living in the house they will have to wait until they are 18 or finished education.
2. Pension. No precedents. Some people have speculated that recent pension changes might make HMRC more likely to go after pensions. But they probably cannot touch this.
3. I believe they can get salary at source. You should be left enough to live on.
4. Other assets can be sold.
5. They cannot touch benefits.

You get what you pay for and all advice on here is free. If you asked 10 different insolvency agents you would get 11 different opinions. Sorry but there will be no certainty for you.

Personally I suggest you get divorced, give the house to your wife, pay her alot of spousal maintenance or live on benefits. Get a shrink.They have lots of lovely drugs these days! And talking about what you are thinking of doing to HMRC is very therapeutic!

I feel for you. I really do.

[flamel]

right then,

you cant pay an APN because your contracting days and financial rewards were part of a bygone era, so HMRC want their money but how are they going to get it?

questions i think are relavent:

- can they force you to sell your famiy home under joint names to release equity?
- can they extract money from your pension?
- can they deduct regular money from your salary at source? (using what type of calculation?)
- can they make you sell any other assets like cars, etc
- what if you are on benfits? that would be interesting !!!

i await your informed feedback

I don't think anyone can answer these questions at this time, as there has yet to be a case of debt enforcement proceedings for an APN.
In theory, though, yes to all of the above. Remember your wife etc are separate entities so they can't grab her share. Pension grab is unclear after a recent case.
The advice I've had is don't do anything stupid (like transferring all your assets to someone else) as these transactions can be reversed by a court, don't keep all your cash for a rainy day (they'll potentially raid it) and as usual, get professional advice from an insolvency practitioner/tax advisor/accountant who is well versed in these matters.
....and get divorced in London, it's the world's leading place for wives getting the lot, if you get my drift.

[smeg35]

Get divorced in London. Great advice
After taking part in a part in a scheme that is circumspect the best thing is to follow this with further circumspect steps

How about pay the HMRC what is due like most if the British public

[dangerouswhensober]

What HMRC can and can't do ...

right then,

you cant pay an APN because your contracting days and financial rewards were part of a bygone era, so HMRC want their money but how are they going to get it?

questions i think are relavent:

- can they force you to sell your famiy home under joint names to release equity?
- can they extract money from your pension?
- can they deduct regular money from your salary at source? (using what type of calculation?)
- can they make you sell any other assets like cars, etc
- what if you are on benfits? that would be interesting !!!

i await your informed feedback

At the risk of sounding like a record with a sticking needle - HMRC can probably do most of these things, but THEY HAVE TO GO TO COURT FIRST !

HMRC are NOT above the law - they cannot unilaterally do nasty things to you - they have to have specific legal authorisation to take specific practical measures against an individual.

[Because the process government of the UK is seperated into three branches - legislative (national & regional Parliaments), executive (Civil Service and other agencies, including HMRC) and Judicial (the various Court systems, leading up to the Supreme Court). Each branch is there to act as check-and-balance on the other two. So, for example, Judicial Reviews are one method used by the judiciary to check that legislature is 'fair' and workable.]

Any specific measure that HMRC wants to take against an individual has to be legally sanctioned - and that's where you get to argue your case.

For example - if HMRC wants to seize your assets, they have to get a 'Walking Distraint Order' against you specifically from a court - and you (or your lawyer) can argue why they shouldn't be granted this order (because no debt exists to justify the order). HMRC would have to argue to a judge why they think a debt exists - which (I have said before) would (at present) be difficult for HMRC to do if your "debt" was from membership of an EBT scheme.

Another example - if HMRC wants to attach your earnings, they have to obtain an 'Attachement Of Earnings Order' from a court - and, again, you (or your lawyer) can argue why they shouldn't be granted this order (because you believe no debt exists). (HMRC cannot just tell your employer to send them a proportion of your earnings - they don't have this power !!)

Same thing with bankruptcy - as discussed in an earlier post.

BTW - If, at some time in the future, HMRC are given the powers to take money directly from debtors bank accounts, this also will be subject to the appropriate court order - it won't be just a case of them finding out your account details and then siphoning-off the money - they will need to show your bank the appropriate legal paperwork.

So please understand that you can continue to oppose HMRC in all of their recovery efforts (including bankruptcy) - just because HMRC have these 'powers' doesn't mean they can do things unilaterally.

Once again - I am not a lawyer - and I would welcome informed comment on this from more knowledgable people ...

[MercladUK]

Get divorced in London. Great advice
After taking part in a part in a scheme that is circumspect the best thing is to follow this with further circumspect steps

How about pay the HMRC what is due like most if the British public

I see, you are asking if we can pay more tax so you can get an education which includes spelling and grammar ?