It's all our own fault you know

[DimPrawn]

It's a complex issue.

Go down your local ASDA (if you can stand it) and look at all the cheap food, the food that people on low incomes (due to high taxation) buy to feed themselves and their family. It's all processed, pizzas, burgers, chips, etc.

No wonder everyone it getting fat and having heart disease.

Food manufacturers are chucking out cheap, fat laden processed "food for the masses" and it's killing them.

[BobTheCrate]

I can disagree with Tony Blair easily on this.

The tax payer has had to pay by way of taxes (and duty) to receive medical care when he or she needs it. If the Gov't subsequently breaks that deal then they can damn well refund the proportional amount of tax to the patient. Plus interest.

As JG describes the Gov't wastes enormous, offensively enormous sums of money in the NHS.

But OK then, let's say smokers and drinkers are excluded from free NHS treatment.

Do you really think this is going to help other patients ? Surely you're not so naive.

Or do you think all that would happen as a result, is that enthused with their cut in expenditure, Gov't and the NHS hierarchy will find news ways to spend the budget. A few more brand new office buildings, more luxurious company cars, ever improving salary packages, ever improving pension deals, ever growing IT expenditure, a few thousand more HR staff, a few thousand more risk management consultants ... the list goes on and on.

Before you know it the same problem will re occur. Except the precedent will already have been set and the Gov't can arbitrarily announce new ailments it considers self inflicted and no longer covered by the NHS for free. There would even be a new army of NHS 'officers' paid for by the savings, to examine which ailments in the near future they can spin as being self inflicted.

The NHS primarily exists today for the benefit of its own management hierarchy. Well down the list comes the frontline staff and firmly wedged at the bottom of the list - are the patients.

Understand that and you'll understand no amount of patient culling will cure the endemic NHS waste.

PS: Can you imagine the scale of the outcry if it were a Tory Gov't going down this direction. Spewitt, Ed Balls, slimy Milliband, 2-Jags, Reid, all of them would be spitting poison (as Sybill would say) like some benzene puff adder.

[DimPrawn]

I think it will be the start of:

Heart disease - bad diet - self inflcted - no cover
Diabetes - bad diet - self inflcted - no cover
Lung cancer - smoking - self inflcted - no cover
Liver disease - drinking - self inflcted - no cover
Hyper tension - bad diet & lack of exercise - self inflcted - no cover
Road traffic accident - bad driving - self inflcted - no cover
etc etc

[John Galt]

I'm quite surprised you disagree with this one JG. I'd have thought encouraging people to take responsibility for themselves would have been right up your street. Will be one of the few things I agree with that comes out of his lying mouth, while I'm all for support systems for the poor and unable I'm also very much for reducing reliance on others for your own well being in whatever area.

The trouble is Snaw that he is not 'encouraging' national responsibility. He is using this as an excuse. He is blaming Joe Public for the demise of the NHS rather than accepting that this Government has systematically destroyed it with stupid policy decisions. His 'encouragement' will take the form of banning junk food advertising, alcohol advertising etc and no doubt putting up duty on anything considered unhealthy. What he will not ever do is encourage people to take responsibility for themselves - that is not the NL way

[snaw]

The trouble is Snaw that he is not 'encouraging' national responsibility. He is using this as an excuse. He is blaming Joe Public for the demise of the NHS rather than accepting that this Government has systematically destroyed it with stupid policy decisions. His 'encouragement' will take the form of banning junk food advertising, alcohol advertising etc and no doubt putting up duty on anything considered unhealthy. What he will not ever do is encourage people to take responsibility for themselves - that is not the NL way

He might be blaming Joe Public, but he might also be right in doing so. Obesity is on the rise, drinking is on the rise. Is that this (Or any other) governments fault?

Can they do more to discourage people from living unhealthy lifestyles? Well IMO yes but you can't ban it, you can only discourage it. Quite clearly no mater how good or bad you think the NHS is our lifestyles are creating ever increasing amounts of seriously unhealthy people which puts more strain on the system.

I'd never agree to banning people getting treatment, but at least we've got to be aware it's an issue that has to be tackled.

[Clog II The Avenger]

If you sit in A&E you can notice that the majority of casualties are avoidable. At weekends they are mainly sports injuries (stupid show off bu99ers). Motor accidents , but the hospital can claim back from the drivers insurance. Heatstroke, highly avoidable.

Then there are the expensive long stays; there is Aids, avoidable and the vast majority of aids cases are from African Refugees who have the automatic right to asylum if they have aids and can’t get treatment in their own country. IVF treatment, highly expensive and works on very few occasions and not need at all when there more than enough orphans in the world.

[John Galt]

He might be blaming Joe Public, but he might also be right in doing so. Obesity is on the rise, drinking is on the rise. Is that this (Or any other) governments fault?

Can they do more to discourage people from living unhealthy lifestyles? Well IMO yes but you can't ban it, you can only discourage it. Quite clearly no mater how good or bad you think the NHS is our lifestyles are creating ever increasing amounts of seriously unhealthy people which puts more strain on the system.

I'd never agree to banning people getting treatment, but at least we've got to be aware it's an issue that has to be tackled.

But you have to ask yourself why people are becoming more unhealthy. Look at the school dinners that are served up these days, despite Jamie whatisface, they have the nutritional content of a house brick. And why - because the schools are underfunded - why are the schools underfunded - I rest my case m'lud. Doesn't matter how you look at it it's all Bliar's fault

[snaw]

If you sit in A&E you can notice that the majority of casualties are avoidable. At weekends they are mainly sports injuries (stupid show off bu99ers). Motor accidents , but the hospital can claim back from the drivers insurance. Heatstroke, highly avoidable.

Then there are the expensive long stays; there is Aids, avoidable and the vast majority of aids cases are from African Refugees who have the automatic right to asylum if they have aids and can’t get treatment in their own country. IVF treatment, highly expensive and works on very few occasions and not need at all when there more than enough orphans in the world.

The majority of aids cases are still gay men, the next group is hetrosexuals which includes refugees bit isn't entirely made up from them (on the stats page there was 3500 new hetrosexual cases, 500 of them 'aquired' it here so that other 3000 I guess isn't all refugees either).

Just want to nip this small piece of mistruth in the bud, sounds like a pamphlet stat from the BNP imo.

[snaw]

But you have to ask yourself why people are becoming more unhealthy. Look at the school dinners that are served up these days, despite Jamie whatisface, they have the nutritional content of a house brick. And why - because the schools are underfunded - why are the schools underfunded - I rest my case m'lud. Doesn't matter how you look at it it's all Bliar's fault

If we're chucking blame around then there are plenty of targets - fast food companies that aggresively target children, parents who drive their kids to school, school dinners offering junk, TB & NL, the tories (They cut school budgets too), video games etc etc. I'm sure I could go on but IMO it's something people are only relatively recently becoming aware of so apportioning blame isn't really useful, for it's more about what we do from here on in that's important.

[John Galt]

The majority of aids cases are still gay men, the next group is hetrosexuals which includes refugees bit isn't entirely made up from them (on the stats page there was 3500 new hetrosexual cases, 500 of them 'aquired' it here so that other 3000 I guess isn't all refugees either).

Just want to nip this small piece of mistruth in the bud, sounds like a pamphlet stat from the BNP imo.

Wouldn't the gay refugees be included in the first catagory? I doubt our illustrious leaders have a special catagory for immigrants - that would be prejudiced