The future of Britain outside the EU ....

[Scoobos]

Stay at heart of Europe, US tells Britain - FT.com

So does that mean we will decline into insignificance politically around the world?
And is it a bad thing if we stop being the world's junior policeman?

I want us to stay in the EU, but that's a different discussion.

I don't give 2 cents about what the US think of our special relationship. In my time in the US watching their news I noticed that they have a "special relationship" with every single country they ever seem to visit. It means nowt to me, its a one way relationship and has been for years (politically).

[tomtomagain]

Why would a business relocate to France and pay corporate taxes of 33.3% when they could go to Holland and pay only 25% or Ireland and only pay 12%?

Good post but I find a stampede of companies to France hard to believe!

[Mich the Tester]

I've read somewhere that the Germans are 'very keen' for the UK to stay in the EU to lead the reformation of the system.

The Germans seem to think that we are the only ones not hide-bound to the institutions and can see the wood for the trees.

We've also turned around massive systems in a way that other Governments have not managed.

Yup, you've got it; that's what the smart Germans are saying. But the German leadership just can't afford to publicly state that they think the EU's a failure because they have huge economic and political capital invested in the current system and so they need to maintain stability while reforms can be made; they believe that the Brits will support them when they attempt to sort out Europe's economic mess with the kind of reforms they introduced at the beginning of this century known as the Hartz reforms, many of which could almost have been written by Margaret Thatcher herself, and which are actually a big part of Germany's economic success. Unfortunately there are some people in Britain who seem to think modern Germans want to run around with spikey helmets trying to get some more lebensraum for themselves and don't understand just how fundamentally German attitudes have changed.

[Mich the Tester]

Why would a business relocate to France and pay corporate taxes of 33.3% when they could go to Holland and pay only 25% or Ireland and only pay 12%?

Good post but I find a stampede of companies to France hard to believe!

You're stuck in the present when the issue's about the future. France can lower it's corporation tax rate, and it will if it wants to, and with Britain outside the EU it could easily offer tax advantages to British companies to relocate; with Britain in the EU it's actually more difficult for them to do that. Get out and you'll have no means to stop the French saying 'everyone pays 33% except for businesses that moved from Britain who'll pay the same but get a huge rebate so effectively they pay no tax'. They can't do that now, because Britain can stop them doing that through the EU. You want to let them do that?

Monsieur le Frog says ' here Mr Tata; close your factory in Coventry and we'll give you a brand new free factory here in France, with no taxes to pay for the next 20 years, as long as you employ several thousand people from our new Franco-German trade agreement. Oh, and we'll put import duties on competitors from outside the EU so your products are always just a bit cheaper than theirs'

And if you don't think the French are nasty and calculating enough to do something like that, you've obviously missed out on the last 1000 years of European history and you don't have family in the beef business. They've still got restrictions on British beef farmers, even though BSE is better controlled in Britain than anywhere else, and the rest of Europe has lifted the retrictions. They'll do the same to every other British industry if they're given a chance.

[Gibbon]

Our politicians need to understand that we are nothing special these days, if only to stop them from promising more military forces and government aid than we can afford.

We are no more special than Sweden or the Netherlands and we delude ourselves if we think otherwise.

You are wrong, if we meekly acquiesce then we shall get an ever decreasing portion of the global pie. The game is bluff and projection. We are special in the worldwide context.

We have for all their faults and problems:

1) A functioning parliamentary democracy.

2) A non political police.

3) Non political armed services

4) An accessible health service (post code lottery I know)

5) A free press

6) Religious and sexual freedom.

7) A first language that is one of the world's second.

8) Free education

9) Cricket

10) Yorkshire

11) Sam Smiths Old Brewery Bitter

12) Contractoruk

[sasguru]

You are wrong, if we meekly acquiesce then we shall get an ever decreasing portion of the global pie. The game is bluff and projection. We are special in the worldwide context.

We have for all their faults and problems:

1) A functioning parliamentary democracy.

2) A non political police.

3) Non political armed services

4) An accessible health service (post code lottery I know)

5) A free press

6) Religious and sexual freedom.

7) A first language that is one of the world's second.

8) Free education

9) Cricket

10) Yorkshire

11) Sam Smiths Old Brewery Bitter

12) Contractoruk

Yeah but we is broke, innit, so have been found out. The game is up.

[tomtomagain]

Actually I'm pro European. I think that the future is to remain within a reformed EU.

France might try and bash the UK in exactly the same way an independent rUK would bash an independent Scotland.

We of course would bash them back. Bashing the French is essentially part of the national character.

I agree that the Brits leaving the EU would put in train a set of events that may unwind the whole EU project.

But I am not convinced though that a German/Franco relationship would last.

A closer Anglo-Germananic cooperation would seem more logical to me. That way you would combine the best manufacturing based economy with the best service based economy with around 150M population ( including Austria, Holland ). World-class Universities, World-class research. It would have a lot going for it.

Why would the Germans want to be tied closer to the French with their inefficient farming, bloated state and state supported industries?

Prior to World War 1 the Germans & Anglo-Saxons generally considered themselves "Cousins". It was the carnage of the trenches that destroyed that.

That was 100 years ago. Time to move on, re-unite and get back to being Great.

[Mich the Tester]

A closer Anglo-Germananic cooperation would seem more logical to me. That way you would combine the best manufacturing based economy with the best service based economy with around 150M population ( including Austria, Holland ). World-class Universities, World-class research. It would have a lot going for it.

I wish I had a hat to doff to you. Another one who understands what's going on.

[Gibbon]

Yeah but we is broke, innit, so have been found out. The game is up.

The trick is to hide that.

[tomtomagain]

I wish I had a hat to doff to you. Another one who understands what's going on.

I'll accept a virtually doffing :-)