Africa and why waste money on them?

[snaw]

It is pretty clear where you were laying the blame for Africa's problems. As colonisation was the main method through which we and others exerted our evil influence to Africa your point of view was (I use the word "was&quot unambiguous.

OMFG. Can you read, or do you have some aversion to actually digesting what other people write? I'm not making a link and never have made a link with colonisation and economic woes - you have. I quite clearly stated colonisation and civil wars, nothing else. I also quite clearly stated economic woes and debts/closed markets.

My point was that I was questioning the assumption that Africa was necessarily worse off under our influence (manifested initially through colonialism). You have now backtracked by accepting in your words:

What assumption? The one you assume I made, but can't actually back up cause I didn't make it. I'm not backtracking one inch - I've nothing to backtrack on.

[DodgyAgent]

Which part of this do you fail to understand? I didn't make a link between colonisation and the economic woes off Africa for a reason, I don't think there is one.

I thought that you said that civil wars were caused by alterations made to boundaries by colonial powers. Let me quote you again:

I said we're the root of most of Africa's problems, which is pretty much true for most of the continent - whether it be crippling debt's, or artificial boundries/countries we left behind

[xoggoth]

Re: to be fair

This used to be my favourite theory, the destruction of Africa's own culture and social structure by colonists was a major cause of the problems.

I have changed my mind. Judging from history, including what went on in Africa before we interfered by way of tribal warfare, the probability is that Africa, left entirely to its own devices, would have evolved just as Europe did. In other words, with centuries or millenia of warfare and bloodshed.

No fan of colonialism in principle but as far as Africa's problems are concerned I think we have no reason whatever to feel guilty. Rather, I think our interference has vastly accelerated their political evolution. Considering what Africa was two hundred years ago and what it is today, with at least some democracy in many countries, the rate of progress has been astonishing.

[DodgyAgent]

Which part of this do you fail to understand? I didn't make a link between colonisation and the economic woes off Africa for a reason, I don't think there is one.

I thought you said that the cause of the problems were civil wars

I wouldn't argue that colonisation caused the economic problems faced by Africa - just the civil war's that seem to rage across it continually.

And you also said that we were responsible for changing boundaries I quote your words:

I said we're the root of most of Africa's problems, which is pretty much true for most of the continent - whether it be crippling debt's, or artificial boundries/countries we left behind

and you also said that boundary changes were the main causes of civil wars !!!! I quote again:

we colonised most of Africa during the 'Scramble for Africa'. When we left we left behind artificial countries, and boundries between countries - most of the civil wars can be attributed to that simple fact.

These are not my assumptions snaw, they are your words.

[snaw]

Re: to be fair

I thought that you said that civil wars were caused by alterations made to boundaries by colonial powers. Let me quote you again:

I did. C I V I L W A R S. maybe spelling it out helps. While obviously this isn't a great thing for the economy of the country involved it doesn't necessarily leave long term economic issues. Unlike crippling debt's and closed trade market's. I mentioned them as well.

Here's my quote again you seem to love, let me break it down for those with reading comprehension problems amongst us:

I said we're the root of most of Africa's problems, {Notice the word problems - I've even listed them elsewehe. But I'll do it again - civil wars, closed markets, crippling debts}

which is pretty much true for most of the continent - whether it be crippling debt's , or artificial boundries/countries we left behind {Oh here they are. I don't see the words - because we colonised them in there.

Now what is your problem - can't you accept your wrong? Just one time try admit - I made an assumption about someone else and got it wrong. It'll get easier over time especially with the amount of practice you potentially could have.

[snaw]

Re: to be fair

Jaysus, I'm dealing with an imbecile.

I thought you said that the cause of the problems were civil wars


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I wouldn't argue that colonisation caused the economic problems faced by Africa - just the civil war's that seem to rage across it continually.

Sorry - but you use a quote where I specifically say it's not the cause of the economic woes as evidence to the contrary?!?!

I said the cause of Africa's problems were civil wars? Where? I said problems, once again I'll list them - civil wars, crippling debts, closed markets.

Are you taking the piss? I'm struggling to believe you are actually this blinkered.

[hattra]

Re: to be fair

Of course, what everybody's forgotten, is that we DIDN'T stop meddling in Africa after the end of the colonial period. We (and by that I mean mainly Britain and France as agents for the West) propped up most of these monsters as a defence against the Soviet Union extending its influence into Africa - remember Angola - Cubans on one side and South Africans on the other - the Cold War by proxy.

Snaw is right about the boundaries, economic barriers, etc, etc. but we had a hand in the creation of corruption as well. We knew when we loaned or gave these countries money that huge amounts went into the rulers personal bank accounts - it was a way of keeping them onside - a bribe of colossal proportions - but it was cheaper, and politically more acceptable than getting involved in a ground war in Africa

Colonialism did have its advantages for the subject countries, mainly in the form of fairer legal systems and infrastructure development, but we screwed that all up by getting out of them so fast that we never built up the institutions, the political traditions and the solutions to traditional problems that we knew existed in these countries (i.e. tribal loyalties). One day it was "know your place, boy", the next it was "here's the keys to the Treasury, spend it wisely", In the absence of any developed party political system, they just fell back on the only system that they knew - tribal loyalty.

Modern Africa undoubtedly bears a great deal of responsibility for its own problems, but anybody who thinks we (as in the West, and in a great part, Britain) had no part in it has their head stuck firmly where the sun doesn't shine - or maybe they are the ones feeling guilty

[DodgyAgent]

Re: to be fair

Are you taking the piss?

There is an old saying which is:

you can't take the piss out oh s*it unless you stamp on it

[DodgyAgent]

Re: to be fair

Snaw, i am obviously very stupid, so perhaps you can explain in short words.

You say that "we" are responsible for the problems of Africa because we as colonists altered the boundaries of the various countries that we conolised in Africa.. right?

These alterations are in your words the cause of most of the civil wars ..is that correct?

And civil wars are the cause of Africas problems along with closed markets (which I agree with) and our failure to write off debt (which I dont agree with). Is that what you are saying?

[hattra]

Re: to be fair

I'm struggling to believe

Don't use the "B" word, snaw - Chico might hear you