The stark choice: Increase German debt or save the Euro

[Churchill]

And it's interesting how that has been spun to declare this a banker's deficit.

The bankers didn't cause the structural deficit - merely they are no longer making enough money for the tax revenues to be able to cover it.

Yet it is being spun that money is being taken from "hard working families" and "given" to bankers.

Bankers (not banks) make money whatever the financial climate. They are the scum of the earth! Rein the f*ckers in!

[sasguru]

And it's interesting how that has been spun to declare this a banker's deficit.

The bankers didn't cause the structural deficit - merely they are no longer making enough money for the tax revenues to be able to cover it.

Yet it is being spun that money is being taken from "hard working families" and "given" to bankers.

Bankers are being made the scapegoats for our collective cultural loss of the basic economic principle: only buy what you can afford

[Mich the Tester]

Bankers are being made the scapegoats for our collective cultural loss of the basic economic principle: only buy what you can afford

Wouldn't lots of manufacturers go bust if people only bought what they can afford?

[Churchill]

Wouldn't lots of manufacturers go bust if people only bought what they can afford?

Oh FFS, remember who you're dealing with here. If SASGuru had the slightest grasp of economics he wouldn't be living in a shed like stig-of-the-dump!

[sasguru]

Wouldn't lots of manufacturers go bust if people only bought what they can afford?

Quite and the German/Japanese economies wouldn't be quite is such good shape.

[Mich the Tester]

Quite and the German/Japanese economies wouldn't be quite is such good shape.

Personally I think part of the problem for manufacturers is also the inflated price of houses all over northern Europe.

Put it this way; a new, fairly average family car, say a Golf or Focus costs about 24,000 euros here in Holland. That's not much less than the average joe earns in a year. From his salary, he has to pay his mortgage (whichh will cost him about 10,000 a year), food, bills, various kinds of insurance and tax. Not much left for his car, so if he gets a new one every five years or a 2 year old car every few years, given the depreciation he'll be up to his eyeballs in debt after two car replacements. If he doesn't do that, then VW and Ford go bust.

Something has to give; personally I think that if we're going to keep a strong manufacturing sector in Europe we're going to have to give some things up, one of them being the bloated governments we have, the other being the vastly inflated house prices. While people have to borrow five times their income to pay for a roof over their heads, they can't be expected to buy lots of shiny new stuff without taking on more and more debt.

But of course, saying something like this to the Brits is like shouting in the desert, and that change would take a long time involving painful negative equity for lots of people. I'd say to young people looking to buy their first house right now; don't bother. Rent, and wait for a while.

We can't all have expensive houses AND posh cars AND luxury holidays. A collapse in house prices would probably be the least painful thing in the long run as long as current owners can just keep paying the mortgage.

[sasguru]

We can't all have expensive houses AND posh cars AND luxury holidays. .

That's what Europeans have been taught to think of as their right. Sadly economic circs have changed.

PS 24K for a focus - fook me, why so high? You can get a Kia Cee'd which is just as good for £11k here.

[Mich the Tester]

That's what Europeans have been taught to think of as their right. Sadly economic circs have changed.

PS 24K for a focus - fook me, why so high? You can get a Kia Cee'd which is just as good for £11k here.

42% car sales tax; and there we have and example of the 'bloated government' bit of what I said. And of course I'm sure the Kia Ceed is a perfectly adequate alternative, but that doesn't help Europe's manufacturers.

[sasguru]

42% car sales tax; and there we have and example of the 'bloated government' bit of what I said. And of course I'm sure the Kia Ceed is a perfectly adequate alternative, but that doesn't help Europe's manufacturers.

It does as the Cee'd is made in Europe.

[Mich the Tester]

It does as the Cee'd is made in Europe.

where?