Alternative Vote (AV) Yes or No?

[Paddy]

I don’t understand the Audio Visual election thing. I am off to have a cup of tea.

[shaunbhoy]

I'll probably vote yes. There's no doubt PR is fairer, but equally no doubt PR has some problems. AV won't favour extremists (the opposite I would say), and won't make hung parliaments more likely, and will make little difference in reality. But in some cases may make the result more representative of the wishes of the people, which is kind of the point of democracy. I think it's an improvement, albeit a small one, with no real downside.

WVMS +1

True Democracy would have to involve PR, and although AV falls way short of that ideal, it is at least a step in the right direction, so for that reason I shall be voting "Yes".
10% of the Voting Public should be entitled to 10% of the Voting Rights, however zany and outlandish their viewpoint might be. The nearer we get to that the better IMHO.

[Doggy Styles]

How exactly?

Under the current situation, if I supported the BNP I'd see it as a wasted vote. I'd therefore vote for my favourite big party (if for no other reason than to keep out my least favourite big party).

However, under AV it is not a wasted vote.

Only safe seats would be decided first time round without second choices coming into play. In other seats I could put BNP as my top vote, knowing that once they are eliminated from the race, my second vote (for my favoured big party) is counted.

If enough people do that, and there are some places like Burnley and East London where they might, those new BNP votes might actually start returning MPs.

[Platypus]

Because he's an idiot, happily; YES would give him a few seats at the next election.

That's not my understanding unless there are seats where he polls the most or second-most number of votes. It's my understanding that BNP voters' 2nd and 3rd preferences are most likely to be counted. The danger here is that major parties will have to try to appeal to BNP supporters to garner their 2nd and 3rd preference selections, thereby giving the BNP a disproportionate influence on election outcomes.

[Doggy Styles]

Mind you, Nick Griffin doesn't come across as very bright, so BNP's popularity is limited.

But when they get a clever leader with the gift of the gab...

[Platypus]

Under the current situation, if I supported the BNP I'd see it as a wasted vote. I'd therefore vote for my favourite big party (if for no other reason than to keep out my least favourite big party).

However, under AV it is not a wasted vote.

Only safe seats would be decided first time round without second choices coming into play. In other seats I could put BNP as my top vote, knowing that once they are eliminated from the race, my second vote (for my favoured big party) is counted.

If enough people do that, and there are some places like Burnley and East London where they might, those new BNP votes might actually start returning MPs.

That's not my understanding unless there are seats where he polls the most or second-most number of votes. It's my understanding that BNP voters' 2nd and 3rd preferences are most likely to be counted. The danger here is that major parties will have to try to appeal to BNP supporters to garner their 2nd and 3rd preference selections, thereby giving the BNP a disproportionate influence on election outcomes.

An interesting POV, Doggy. What you suggest is being touted as "not possible" (per my post) but I think you have a point.

[Platypus]

Mind you, Nick Griffin doesn't come across as very bright, so BNP's popularity is limited.

But when they get a clever leader with the gift of the gab...

You may not think he's bright, but he's certainly bright enough to impress lots of people with his views.

[SimonMac]

Under the current situation, if I supported the BNP I'd see it as a wasted vote. I'd therefore vote for my favourite big party (if for no other reason than to keep out my least favourite big party).

However, under AV it is not a wasted vote.

Only safe seats would be decided first time round without second choices coming into play. In other seats I could put BNP as my top vote, knowing that once they are eliminated from the race, my second vote (for my favoured big party) is counted.

If enough people do that, and there are some places like Burnley and East London where they might, those new BNP votes might actually start returning MPs.

I don't think the BNP (and other fringe groups) will pick up many votes, it will go the other way, the same people will vote for those smaller parties, which will then be eliminated and their votes will be distributed between the big three.

I basically see AV as saying "if you voted for anyone other than the big three, we want you to try again and vote properly this time"

[VectraMan]

If enough people do that, and there are some places like Burnley and East London where they might, those new BNP votes might actually start returning MPs.

You're assuming the majority want to vote BNP, but are choosing not to because they don't think the BNP will win. I don't believe that's true, but if it was true then the BNP should win that seat.

AV means a party has to get at least 50% of the support, one way or another. Whereas with FPTP the bar required to win is much lower (assuming the supporters of other parties can't agree), and that favours the likes of the BNP. A constituency split evenly five ways means the winner only needs 20% + 1 vote to win, even though 80% might be horrified at the thought of who they've just elected. With AV you'd count the second and maybe third choices, and that favours the moderate centre parties who nobody objects to too much.

I agree that AV means people are more likely to vote honestly, because they have a second choice, and perhaps that'll give the statisticians a more accurate picture of how much support extremists really have. But it won't make it more likely they get elected.

[Doggy Styles]

You may not think he's bright, but he's certainly bright enough to impress lots of people with his views.

You're probably right, but he allows his party to have too many dodgy characters associated with it.

I just thought that he should have realised by now that they need a bit of detox, like the Tories and New Labour have done.