Something rotten in the state of ...

[Fungus]

Well yes, I well remember the burning of the American enbassy in London and elsewhere in Europe in response to the Jerry Springer Opera. And when Monty Python's Life of Brian was shown, several members of the Python team were slaughtered and the video recording distributed. This is all well documented.

Just goes to show that you must not be rude about someone's religion. That's not what free speech allows.

Fungus

[AlfredJPruffock]

Alf, where is the exaggeration? The real loonies are burning embassies and calling for infidels to be beheaded, or are you saying they are CIA stooges being paid in a conspiracy to whip up anti-Islamic feeling? Nowhere did I say they represented the majority of anybody.

The fact that the editor of a Danish newspaper might have some double standards when it comes to editorial policy in no way excuses the behaviour we have seen.

The attack on the embassy is symbolic as the burning of the Beatles records were in the States after John Lennon said they were bigger than JC; its expression of outrage at blasphemy in both occasions; its hard for the secular mind to understand perhaps; but for some there is still something sacred; who are we to deride that ?

I condone mindness violence and hate nothing at all except hatred; still you have to assess this in the current political climate; who benefits from provoking the muslims.

I still have not forgotten the furore over the Iraqi soldiers pulling kuwaiti babys out of incubators in Kuwait:

This story was a sham designed to raise hatred of the Iraqis:yet many believed the hype.

I dont take anything the media states at face value; so lets see what emerges.

Hate nothing at all except hatred

[DodgyAgent]

I dont take anything the media states at face value; so lets see what emerges.

[/I]

Unless it is anti Israel or USA eh Alf?

[Churchill]

Unless it is anti Israel or USA eh Alf?

Whoa, controversial there me old matey!

Btw, WTF, Scotland beat France?

How're your knees standing up Dodgy and how's your BMI? Mine's 30.06... not bad for a big hunk o' love like myself!

[AlfredJPruffock]

Not the old anti US chesnut again DA ; as Ive said before I do not like the policies of the current US administration and the majority of Americans back me in that sentiment:I did like the US polices of Bill Clinton but thats now history.


Speaking of Americans I like; heres an interesting offering from my favourite US author Mr Kurt Vonnegurt; now a sprightly 82 years old ; a big round of applause please Ladies and Gentlemen ...Kurt Vonnegurts Blues for America

Listen to what the old man is telling you how it is back home ...

No matter how corrupt, greedy, and heartless our government, our corporations, our media, and our religious and charitable institutions may become, the music will still be wonderful.


If I should ever die, God forbid, let this be my epitaph:

THE ONLY PROOF HE NEEDED
FOR THE EXISTENCE OF GOD
WAS MUSIC

Now, during our catastrophically idiotic war in Vietnam, the music kept getting better and better and better. We lost that war, by the way. Order couldn't be restored in Indochina until the people kicked us out.

That war only made billionaires out of millionaires. Today's war is making trillionaires out of billionaires. Now I call that progress.

And how come the people in countries we invade can't fight like ladies and gentlemen, in uniform and with tanks and helicopter gunships?

Back to music. It makes practically everybody fonder of life than he or she would be without it.

Even military bands, although I am a pacifist, always cheer me up. And I really like Strauss and Mozart and all that, but the priceless gift that African Americans gave the whole world when they were still in slavery was a gift so great that it is now almost the only reason many foreigners still like us at least a little bit.

That specific remedy for the worldwide epidemic of depression is a gift called the blues. All pop music today * jazz, swing, be-bop, Elvis Presley, the Beatles, the Stones, rock-and-roll, hip-hop, and on and on * is derived from the blues.

A gift to the world? One of the best rhythm-and-blues combos I ever heard was three guys and a girl from Finland playing in a club in Krakow, Poland.

The wonderful writer Albert Murray, who is a jazz historian and a friend of mine among other things, told me that during the era of slavery in this country * an atrocity from which we can never fully recover * the suicide rate per capita among slave owners was much higher than the suicide rate among slaves.

Murray says he thinks this was because slaves had a way of dealing with depression, which their white owners did not: They could shoo away Old Man Suicide by playing and singing the Blues.

He says something else which also sounds right to me. He says the blues can't drive depression clear out of a house, but can drive it into the corners of any room where it's being played. So please remember that.

Foreigners love us for our jazz. And they don't hate us for our purported liberty and justice for all. They hate us now for our arrogance.

When I went to grade school in Indian apolis, the James Whitcomb Riley School #43, we used to draw pictures of houses of tomorrow, boats of tomorrow, airplanes of tomorrow, and there were all these dreams for the future.

Of course at that time everything had come to a stop.


The factories had stopped, the Great Depression was on, and the magic word was Prosperity. Sometime Prosperity will come. We were preparing for it. We were dreaming of the sorts of houses human beings should inhabit * ideal dwellings, ideal forms of transportation.

What is radically new today is that my daughter, Lily, who has just turned 21, finds herself, as do your children, as does George W Bush, himself a kid, and Saddam Hussein and on and on, heir to a shockingly recent history of human slavery, to an Aids epidemic, and to nuclear submarines slumbering on the floors of fjords in Iceland and elsewhere, crews prepared at a moment's notice to turn industrial quantities of men, women, and children into radioactive soot and bone meal by means of rockets and H-bomb warheads.


Our children have inherited technologies whose by-products, whether in war or peace, are rapidly destroying the whole planet as a breathable, drinkable system for supporting life of any kind.

Anyone who has studied science and talks to scientists notices that we are in terrible danger now. Human beings, past and present, have trashed the joint.

The biggest truth to face now * what is probably making me unfunny now for the remainder of my life * is that I don't think people give a damn whether the planet goes on or not.


It seems to me as if everyone is living as members of Alcoholics Anonymous do, day by day. And a few more days will be enough. I know of very few people who are dreaming of a world for their grandchildren.

Many years ago I was so innocent I still considered it possible that we could become the humane and reasonable America so many members of my generation used to dream of.

We dreamed of such an America during the Great Depression, when there were no jobs.


And then we fought and often died for that dream during the second world war, when there was no peace.

But I know now that there is not a chance in hell of America becoming humane and reasonable. Because power corrupts us, and absolute power corrupts us absolutely. Human beings are chimpanzees who get crazy drunk on power.


By saying that our leaders are power-drunk chimpanzees, am I in danger of wrecking the morale of our soldiers fighting and dying in the Middle East? Their morale, like so many lifeless bodies, is already shot to pieces.


They are being treated, as I never was, like toys a rich kid got for Christmas.

Human beings have had to guess about almost everything for the past million years or so. The leading characters in our history books have been our most enthralling, and sometimes our most terrifying, guessers.

May I name two of them? Aristotle and Hitler.

One good guesser and one bad one.

And the masses of humanity through the ages, feeling inadequately educated just like we do now, and rightly so, have had little choice but to believe this guesser or that one.

Russians who didn't think much of the guesses of Ivan the Terrible, for example, were likely to have their hats nailed to their heads.

We must acknowledge that persuasive guessers, even Ivan the Terrible, now a hero in the Soviet Union, have sometimes given us the courage to endure extraordinary ordeals which we had no way of understanding.


Crop failures, plagues, eruptions of volcanoes, babies being born dead * the guessers often gave us the illusion that bad luck and good luck were understandable and could somehow be dealt with intelligently and effectively.


Without that illusion, we all might have surrendered long ago.

But the guessers, in fact, knew no more than the common people and sometimes less, even when, or especially when, they gave us the illusion that we were in control of our destinies.

Persuasive guessing has been at the core of leadership far so long, for all of human experience so far, that it is wholly unsurprising that most of the leaders of this planet, in spite of all the information that is suddenly ours, want the guessing to go on.


It is now their turn to guess and guess and be listened to. Some of the loudest, most proudly ignorant guessing in the world is going on in Washington today.

Our leaders are sick of all the solid information that has been dumped on humanity by research and scholarship and investigative reporting. They think that the whole country is sick of it, and they could be right.

It isn't the gold standard that they want to put us back on. They want something even more basic.

They want to put us back on the snake-oil standard.

Loaded pistols are good for everyone except inmates in prisons or lunatic asylums.

That's correct.

Millions spent on public health are inflationary.

That's correct.

Billions spent on weapons will bring inflation down.

That's correct.

Dictatorships to the right are much closer to American ideals than dictatorships to the left.

That's correct.

The more hydrogen bomb warheads we have, all set to go off at a moment's notice, the safer humanity is and the better off the world will be that our grandchildren will inherit.

That's correct.

Industrial wastes, and especially those that are radioactive, hardly ever hurt anybody, so everybody should shut up about them.

That's correct.

Industries should be allowed to do whatever they want to do: bribe, wreck the environment just a little, fix prices, screw dumb customers, put a stop to competition, and raid the Treasury when they go broke.

That's correct.

That's free enterprise.

And that's correct.

The poor have done something very wrong or they wouldn't be poor, so their children should pay the consequences.

That's correct.

The United States of America cannot be expected to look after its own people.

That's correct.

The free market will do that.

That's correct.

The free market is an automatic system of justice.

That's correct.

I'm kidding.





... continued on next thread

[AlfredJPruffock]

Kurt Vonnegurts Blues for America ... continued

And if you actually are an educated, thinking person, you will not be welcome in Washington, DC.


I know a couple of bright seventh graders who would not be welcome in Washington, DC. Do you remember those doctors a few months back who got together and announced that it was a simple, clear medical fact that we could not survive even a moderate attack by hydrogen bombs?


They were not welcome in Washington, DC.

Even if we fired the first salvo of hydrogen weapons and the enemy never fired back, the poisons released would probably kill the whole planet by and by.

What is the response in Washington? They guess otherwise. What good is an education? The boisterous guessers are still in charge * the haters of information. And the guessers are almost all highly educated people. Think of that. They have had to throw away their educations, even Harvard or Yale educations.

If they didn't do that, there is no way their uninhibited guessing could go on and on and on. Please, don't you do that. But if you make use of the vast fund of knowledge now available to educated persons, you are going to be lonesome as hell. The guessers outnumber you * and now I have to guess * about 10 to one.

I'm going to tell you some news.

No, I am not running for President, although I do know that a sentence, if it is to be complete, must have both a subject and a verb.

Nor will I confess that I sleep with children. I will say this, though: My wife is by far the oldest person I ever slept with.

Here's the news: I am going to sue the Brown & Williamson Tobacco Company, manufacturers of Pall Mall cigarettes, for a billion bucks! Starting when I was only 12 years old, I have never chain-smoked anything but unfiltered Pall Malls. And for many years now, right on the package, Brown and Williamson have promised to kill me.

But I am now 82. Thanks a lot, you dirty rats. The last thing I ever wanted was to be alive when the three most powerful people on the whole planet would be named Bush, Dick and Colon.

Our government's got a war on drugs. That's certainly a lot better than no drugs at all. That's what was said about prohibition. Do you realise that from 1919 to 1933 it was absolutely against the law to manufacture, transport, or sell alcoholic beverages, and the Indiana newspaper humourist Ken Hubbard said: "Prohibition is better than no liquor at all."

But get this: The two most widely abused and addictive and destructive of all substances are both perfectly legal.

One, of course, is ethyl alcohol. And President George W Bush, no less, and by his own admission, was smashed, or tiddley-poo, or four sheets to the wind a good deal of the time from when he was 16 until he was 40. When he was 41, he says, Jesus appeared to him and made him knock off the sauce, stop gargling nose paint.

Other drunks have seen pink elephants.

About my own history of foreign substance abuse, I've been a coward about heroin and cocaine, LSD and so on, afraid they might put me over the edge. I did smoke a joint of marijuana one time with Jerry Garcia and the Grateful Dead, just to be sociable. It didn't seem to do anything to me one way or the other, so I never did it again. And by the grace of God, or whatever, I am not an alcoholic, largely a matter of genes. I take a couple of drinks now and then and will do it again tonight. But two is my limit. No problem.

I am, of course, notoriously hooked on cigarettes. I keep hoping the things will kill me. A fire at one end and a fool at the other.

But I'll tell you one thing: I once had a high that not even crack cocaine could match. That was when I got my first driver's licence * look out, world, here comes Kurt Vonnegut!

And my car back then, a Studebaker as I recall, was powered, as are almost all means of transportation and other machinery today, and electric power plants and furnaces, by the most abused, addictive, and destructive drugs of all: fossil fuels.

When you got here, even when I got here, the industrialised world was already hopelessly hooked on fossil fuels, and very soon now there won't be any left. Cold turkey.

Can I tell you the truth? I mean this isn't the TV news is it? Here's what I think the truth is: We are all addicts of fossil fuels in a state of denial. And like so many addicts about to face cold turkey, our leaders are now committing violent crimes to get what little is left of what we're hooked on.

I turned 82 on November 11, 2004. What's it like to be this old? I can't parallel park worth a damn any more, so please don't watch while I try to do it. And gravity has become a lot less friendly and manageable than it used to be.

When you get to my age, if you get to my age, and if you have reproduced, you will find yourself asking your own children, who are themselves middle-aged: "What is life all about?'" I have seven kids, three of them orphaned nephews.

I put my big question about life to my son the pediatrician. Dr Vonnegut said this to his doddering old dad: "Father, we are here to help each other get through this thing, whatever it is."

Extracted from A Man Without A Country: A Memoir Of Life In George W Bush's America, (Bloomsbury).

[DodgyAgent]

Not the old anti US chesnut again DA ; as Ive said before I do not like the policies of the current US administration and the majority of Americans back me in that sentiment:I did like the US polices of Bill Clinton but thats now history.


Speaking of Americans I like; heres an interesting offering from my favourite US author Mr Kurt Vonnegurt; now a sprightly 82 ; a big round of applquse please Ladies and Gentlemen ...

No matter how corrupt, greedy, and heartless our government, our corporations, our media, and our religious and charitable institutions may become, the music will still be wonderful.


If I should ever die, God forbid, let this be my epitaph:

THE ONLY PROOF HE NEEDED
FOR THE EXISTENCE OF GOD
WAS MUSIC

Now, during our catastrophically idiotic war in Vietnam, the music kept getting better and better and better. We lost that war, by the way. Order couldn't be restored in Indochina until the people kicked us out.

That war only made billionaires out of millionaires. Today's war is making trillionaires out of billionaires. Now I call that progress.

And how come the people in countries we invade can't fight like ladies and gentlemen, in uniform and with tanks and helicopter gunships?

Back to music.

It makes practically everybody fonder of life than he or she would be without it.

Even military bands, although I am a pacifist, always cheer me up. And I really like Strauss and Mozart and all that, but the priceless gift that African Americans gave the whole world when they were still in slavery was a gift so great that it is now almost the only reason many foreigners still like us at least a little bit.

That specific remedy for the worldwide epidemic of depression is a gift called the blues. All pop music today * jazz, swing, be-bop, Elvis Presley, the Beatles, the Stones, rock-and-roll, hip-hop, and on and on * is derived from the blues.

A gift to the world? One of the best rhythm-and-blues combos I ever heard was three guys and a girl from Finland playing in a club in Krakow, Poland.

The wonderful writer Albert Murray, who is a jazz historian and a friend of mine among other things, told me that during the era of slavery in this country * an atrocity from which we can never fully recover * the suicide rate per capita among slave owners was much higher than the suicide rate among slaves.

.

What is radically new today is that my daughter, Lily, who has just turned 21, finds herself, as do your children, as does George W Bush, himself a kid, and Saddam Hussein and on and on, heir to a shockingly recent history of human slavery, to an Aids epidemic, and to nuclear submarines slumbering on the floors of fjords in Iceland and elsewhere, crews prepared at a moment's notice to turn industrial quantities of men, women, and children into radioactive soot and bone meal by means of rockets and H-bomb warheads.

Our children have inherited technologies whose by-products, whether in war or peace, are rapidly destroying the whole planet as a breathable, drinkable system for supporting life of any kind.

Anyone who has studied science and talks to scientists notices that we are in terrible danger now. Human beings, past and present, have trashed the joint.

The biggest truth to face now * what is probably making me unfunny now for the remainder of my life * is that I don't think people give a damn whether the planet goes on or not. It seems to me as if everyone is living as members of Alcoholics Anonymous do, day by day. And a few more days will be enough. I know of very few people who are dreaming of a world for their grandchildren.

But I know now that there is not a chance in hell of America becoming humane and reasonable. Because power corrupts us, and absolute power corrupts us absolutely.

Human beings are chimpanzees who get crazy drunk on power. By saying that our leaders are power-drunk chimpanzees, am I in danger of wrecking the morale of our soldiers fighting and dying in the Middle East? Their morale, like so many lifeless bodies, is already shot to pieces. They are being treated, as I never was, like toys a rich kid got for Christmas.

Human beings have had to guess about almost everything for the past million years or so. The leading characters in our history books have been our most enthralling, and sometimes our most terrifying, guessers.

May I name two of them? Aristotle and Hitler.

One good guesser and one bad one.

And the masses of humanity through the ages, feeling inadequately educated just like we do now, and rightly so, have had little choice but to believe this guesser or that one.


Our leaders are sick of all the solid information that has been dumped on humanity by research and scholarship and investigative reporting. They think that the whole country is sick of it, and they could be right. It isn't the gold standard that they want to put us back on. They want something even more basic. They want to put us back on the snake-oil standard.

Loaded pistols are good for everyone except inmates in prisons or lunatic asylums.

That's correct.

Millions spent on public health are inflationary.

That's correct.

Billions spent on weapons will bring inflation down.

That's correct.

Dictatorships to the right are much closer to American ideals than dictatorships to the left.

That's correct.

The more hydrogen bomb warheads we have, all set to go off at a moment's notice, the safer humanity is and the better off the world will be that our grandchildren will inherit.

That's correct.

Industrial wastes, and especially those that are radioactive, hardly ever hurt anybody, so everybody should shut up about them.

That's correct.

Industries should be allowed to do whatever they want to do: bribe, wreck the environment just a little, fix prices, screw dumb customers, put a stop to competition, and raid the Treasury when they go broke.

That's correct.

That's free enterprise.

And that's correct.

The poor have done something very wrong or they wouldn't be poor, so their children should pay the consequences.

That's correct.

The United States of America cannot be expected to look after its own people.

That's correct.

The free market will do that.

That's correct.

The free market is an automatic system of justice.

That's correct.

I'm kidding.

... continued on next thread

A lot of people have died, a lot of wars have been fought to afford you the luxury to be a pacifist to criticise the most powerful nation in history, to sneer at the values of consumerism, to enjoy your poetry and to listen to music, and to spout meaningless cliches. You are happy to take Alf, but you like many others who have values that go beyond the ceaseless pursuit of power and wealth, you wont actually sacrifice anything to make changes. The free market is fine but its success is measured in cash and power.. yes you criticise it, but criticism is no self sacrifice is it?

[DodgyAgent]

Whoa, controversial there me old matey!

Btw, WTF, Scotland beat France?

How're your knees standing up Dodgy and how's your BMI? Mine's 30.06... not bad for a big hunk o' love like myself!

But it is the misery of the Welsh that gives me the greatest satisfaction

[Dundeegeorge]

Alf, why do you keep appealing to higher authorities?

Yes, Dylan wrote interesting lyrics (but if you read his chronicles they might not be as deep as some would have you believe), yes, god bless Kurt V (oh, and god bless the dozy ****er who casually dropped 'Breakfast of Champions' on my desk at school complaining that his big brother gave him this book but it was crap (????) and did I want to read it because I would read 'any tulipe') who strips naked our stupidity and our foibles and our weaknesses but never our humanity, god bless East Bay Ray for making the hairs on the back of my neck stand up 20+ years after first hearing the intro to 'Holiday in Cambodia'.
Great stuff, wonderful stuff, life-inspiring stuff, but I wouldn't want to brain dump it on you or anyone else.
If you've got something to say, say it yourself, I'm sure you can adequately explain yourself.

[AlfredJPruffock]

A lot of people have died, a lot of wars have been fought to afford you the luxury to be a pacifist to criticise the most powerful nation in history, to sneer at the values of consumerism, to enjoy your poetry and to listen to music, and to spout meaningless cliches. You are happy to take Alf, but you like many others who have values that go beyond the ceaseless pursuit of power and wealth, you wont actually sacrifice anything to make changes. The free market is fine but its success is measured in cash and power.. yes you criticise it, but criticism is no self sacrifice is it?

It wiznae me DA it wiz yon Kurt Vonnegurt

And what does he know; at 82; well probably more than you and I know; but you shouldnt take what these creative types say at face value.

But hes still an amazing author.

PS a sincere thanks to all those who have died for my poetry and music; I reâlly do appreciate it and will continue to enjoy life on your behalf.

Perfect.