Originally posted by TimberWolf
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Universe 'likely to grow forever'
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"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience". Mark Twain -
Originally posted by scooterscot View PostSo what's the universe expending into?Comment
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Originally posted by sasguru View PostYou might be a monkey on a rock, doesn't mean the rest of us are...
HTH monkey boy
Cosmically speaking you're just a tadpole in a small pond.Science isn't about why, it's about why not. You ask: why is so much of our science dangerous? I say: why not marry safe science if you love it so much. In fact, why not invent a special safety door that won't hit you in the butt on the way out, because you are fired. - Cave JohnsonComment
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Originally posted by scooterscot View PostWhy do you think a universe that exhibits change is an extra dimension?
The universe is not linear, our perception of it is, this is what we call time. That does not mean it exists.
The universe is changing, there is even suggestion that the speed of light has changed since the first structures came into being.
As it says in the dictionary time "the indefinite continued progress of existence and events in the past, present, and future"
a) that the universe is changing i.e. that it's different from one point in time to another
b) that light has a speed i.e. travels a certain distance in a certain period of time
Human perception of time's passing as a linear flow may be just a perception, but that doesn't mean that what we perceive doesn't exist. The fact we experience past, present & future in the way we do implies something about the mathematical structure of the universe. That structure cannot be got rid of simply by considering other points of view where time doesn't "flow", such as the 4 dimensional space time continuum of relativity.
The problem with that is there is nothing to stop me recreating the events of yesterday exactly as they were, today; how would you know the difference?
Disregarding those, if you could recreate the past exactly, I would indeed be unable to tell the difference. This is "symmetry under translation in time", essentially the observation that the laws of physics are the same at all times. It is what leads to the conservation of energy.
This is a good example of how time is different than space. The corresponding translation in space (which can happen in three dimensions instead of one) leads to conservation of momentum.
n.b. I have an unfair advantage here as I have Einstein in my backpackLast edited by doodab; 20 August 2010, 15:29.While you're waiting, read the free novel we sent you. It's a Spanish story about a guy named 'Manual.'Comment
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Originally posted by doodab View PostIf time does not exist, how can you assert:
a) that the universe is changing i.e. that it's different from one point in time to another
Originally posted by doodab View PostIf time does not exist, how can you assert:
b) that light has a speed i.e. travels a certain distance in a certain period of time
Originally posted by doodab View PostHuman perception of time's passing as a linear flow may be just a perception, but that doesn't mean that what we perceive doesn't exist. The fact we experience past, present & future in the way we do implies something about the mathematical structure of the universe. That structure cannot be got rid of simply by considering other points of view where time doesn't "flow", such as the 4 dimensional space time continuum of relativity.
Originally posted by doodab View PostThe problem with that is that there are, in fact, several things that will stop you recreating the events of yesterday exactly as they were, such as the fact that nothing can travel faster than the speed of light, and the uncertainty principle.
Originally posted by doodab View PostThis is "symmetry under translation in time", essentially the observation that the laws of physics are the same at all times. It is what leads to the conservation of energy.Last edited by scooterscot; 23 August 2010, 17:34."Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience". Mark TwainComment
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Originally posted by scooterscot View PostMust you be so linear. If the substance of the universe can be anything why is time relevant? Time is the human way of giving name to a specific sequence of events.
If we are to require that our theories about the universe tally with experience, and hence we reject those theories which are flat out contradicted by things we can observe, then clearly that places some constraints on the substance & nature of the universe.
Now the problem with your opinion is that there is something "timelike" involved in the structure of the universe i.e. there is something that has the particular relationship with space that time has. We can be sure of this, because we can create mathematical descriptions of universes that don't have it, and work out how they might behave, and that disagrees with what we observe.
Originally posted by scooterscot View PostLight is the effect on particles when certain energy levels are exceeded. No different than any other particle or pattern making it's presence felt throughout the cosmos.
There's nothing in SR that's says you cant. Don't know what C has got to do it.
That's the problem, the laws of physics have been shown to change since the big bang. The known universe is around 13.7 billion light years across however in actual fact it's more likely to be around 90 billion light years across i.e. beyond the CMB, just because we cannot see it measure it does not mean symmetry is uniform.
I'm not suggesting that we have the "laws of physics" exactly right, what I am pointing out is that we can make up alternative laws that don't have something "timelike" and work out roughly how such a universe would look, and it wouldn't look like this one. It really is a fundamental fact about the structure of the universe.While you're waiting, read the free novel we sent you. It's a Spanish story about a guy named 'Manual.'Comment
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Originally posted by TimberWolf View PostNo. The standard way to think about it is that we are on the outside of an inflating (4 dimensional) balloon. Everything is receding away from everything else and every point is at the centre of the universe. Nothing is outside the balloon. Not even nothing, it doesn't exist.
There's an infinite amount of nothing (non-existence if you like) beyond whatever spacial limits we put on the universe. Wellington in the Daily Mirror regularly boggled his mind over things like that.Comment
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Tantalising evidence hints Universe is finite - New Scientist
Our Universe seems like an endlessly repeating set of dodecahedrons, football-like shapes with a surface of 12 identical pentagons. If you exit the football through one pentagon, you re-enter the same region through the opposite face and you keep meeting the same galaxies over and over again (see graphic, bottom).
Cornish says his team believes it has already ruled out almost half of the possible small-Universe shapes - including football and doughnut shapes - and he suspects the work will probably turn up nothing, meaning that the Universe is either very large or infinite.Science isn't about why, it's about why not. You ask: why is so much of our science dangerous? I say: why not marry safe science if you love it so much. In fact, why not invent a special safety door that won't hit you in the butt on the way out, because you are fired. - Cave JohnsonComment
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Originally posted by scooterscot View PostMust you be so linear. If the substance of the universe can be anything why is time relevant? Time is the human way of giving name to a specific sequence of events.
Nothing happens instantaneously.Comment
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Originally posted by gingerjedi View PostTantalising evidence hints Universe is finite - New Scientist
Cornish says his team believes it has already ruled out almost half of the possible small-Universe shapes - including football and doughnut shapes - and he suspects the work will probably turn up nothing, meaning that the Universe is either very large or infinite.Comment
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