1001 reasons NEVER to vote TORY

[DodgyAgent]

ToryEnglish,

I answered that question - It involved rebuilding the economy from the ground up by stimulating spending at the lower end rather than resitribution of wealth from the poor to the rich that Thacher actively encouraged. She chose to ride roughshod over the working classes by throwing lives on the scrapheap. A lot of people I know aged around 50 resigned themselves to the fact that they would never work again in this country.
Look up John Maynard Keynes for more info. The only economic policy that has been proven to work. Tou obviously never experienced life at the sharp end in the early 80s. I did. Which is why I will raise a glass when she goes. I'm also doing nicely now thank you vey much and have the opportunity to work if I so wish. Something I couldn;t say then. As I;ve said before, despite its shortcomings, this country is a great place to live these days. It was not in the 80s. Yes, labour must take a lot of the blame for that but there were better and easier ways of turning things around. For her neglect of the working classes, thatcher must also take much blame for the social problems we now face.

That is not a proper argument that is a giant whinge supported by meaningless cliches. The mass unemployment was caused not by Thatcher but by the very collectivist style of labour govt that had to be rescued by the IMF. Thatcher did not redistribute money from the poor to the rich, she simply stopped paying out subsidies to inefficient industries (including the nationalised industries) and freed the wealth creating heart of the economy from the shackles of the trade unions. It was the trade unions supported by labour, high taxes and subsidies that made UK business inefficient, killed incentives for people to start new businesses and trapped the poor in a spiral of welfare dependency.

Justr think, had it not been for Thatcher, we would be paying fortunes for power, telecommunications, etc. Jobs would be few and there would be precious little business to generate the wealth needed to feed and support the nation. Without her you would be on the streets of Warsaw begging.

[Jabberwocky]

So give us some examples of where economies have worked with state handouts being the norm

State handouts, as you call them, happen in every organised society where there is taxation. God you are a fu*cking idiot. Nazi Germany used its income to create one of the most succesful economies in the world only to throw it all away on a campaign of envy, hatred and bigotry. Ring any bells ?

[Gibbon]

The best thing Mrs T ever did was break the F*****G miners. Before you Stalinists get me some tickets to the Goulag I should point out I come from a mining family in a mining town in the socialist republic that was Yorkshire. Both my grandfathers were Deputies down the pit but i still wasn't allowed to work there (1983) as my father didn't work there. The socialist brothers looked after their own. I ended up joining the mob. The next year during the strike the miners use to come round the town with buckets collecting money with menaces with the pretence of using it to feed their wife and kids. No, they spent it on beer right in front of us. When I refused them anymore I got accused of looking after myself and it was alright for me as I had work!!!!

There was no dignity that year only thieving and fighting. Some good fights though in the town center between them and the police.

[DodgyAgent]

State handouts, as you call them, happen in every organised society where there is taxation. God you are a fu*cking idiot. Nazi Germany used its income to create one of the most succesful economies in the world only to throw it all away on a campaign of envy, hatred and bigotry. Ring any bells ?

I thought the German economy thrived after Hitler was dead and after the war. Correct me if I am wrong but the Germans had no welfare state which motivated the Germans to get off their backsides and create the worlds third largest economy. Because there were no subsidies and no welfare everyone had incentives to work hard and create dynamic competitive industries.

Try again

Perhaps you might like to compare West Germany's development with that of East Germany where one side was a free capitalist economy and the other was your utopian economy (East Germany). Hitler came to power in an environment of extreme hardship for Germany and left Germany in tatters.

[BoredBloke]

"It involved rebuilding the economy from the ground up by stimulating spending at the lower end rather than resitribution of wealth from the poor to the rich that Thacher actively encouraged."

And something which has proved to have got worse under NL.

"She chose to ride roughshod over the working classes by throwing lives on the scrapheap."

No I think you'll find that the reason the working classes got it so bad was because they were working in industries who had no market for their goods and who were being artificially propped up. She removed this prop. Had she not done this then the status quo would have maintained and the whole country would have suffered.

Also, if you heavily tax the super rich, you find (as the UK did in the 70's) that they simply up sticks and go elsewhere.

"A lot of people I know aged around 50 resigned themselves to the fact that they would never work again in this country."

Is that any different today? The over 50's you talk about tended to be people who had spent all their working lives in an industry which died. Most were unskilled and so found it impossible to move into other industries.

"Look up John Maynard Keynes for more info. The only economic policy that has been proven to work."

I may do, but why don't you explain how it works since you are the one advocating it. I do have other things to do you know!

"Tou obviously never experienced life at the sharp end in the early 80s."

I guess I was lucky then as my dad got into contracting in the oil industry, retraining at his own expense in the early 70's.

"I'm also doing nicely now thank you vey much and have the opportunity to work if I so wish."

Which you wouldn't if we had carried on with the policies of the 70's. The chances are, if we had continued with the same economic policies of the 70's then you would be working down pit next to your dad, with a lovely view of unsold coal everywhere.

"It was not in the 80s. Yes, labour must take a lot of the blame for that"

Agreed!

"but there were better and easier ways of turning things around."

I don't agree.

"For her neglect of the working classes"

Any political animal is going to take the course of action which proves most popular with the elctorate as a whole. I doubt very much that she decided to target a huge proportion of the electorate simply for her own pleaseure.


"thatcher must also take much blame for the social problems we now face."

No, most of that is down to bad parenting

[hyperD]

Dodgy, look, it's no use trying to explain history and logic to these new liebour pupae, they simply absorb what is drip-fed to them.

The only answer is to let them grow up, wash the shackles of their Marxist student years and "working class" peers, and face the reality of blair's Britain.

[Bagpuss]

Playing devils advocate didn't Mrs T precide over one of the biggest ever tax payer funded subsidies? i.e. the privatisation of the Railways (which cost the taxpayer more to fund in private hands as it did in state hands). It has been a vary costly failure. IMHO the railways is the one industry that should never have been privatised. You can't privatise an oggopoly (sp?), it just doesn't work, there is no competition, there is no feedback mechanism from the customer it's simply take the poor service or leave it.

[DodgyAgent]

Dodgy, look, it's no use trying to explain history and logic to these new liebour pupae, they simply absorb what is drip-fed to them.

The only answer is to let them grow up, wash the shackles of their Marxist student years and "working class" peers, and face the reality of blair's Britain.

They keep saying that they are going to leave yet they dont. Like all socialists they dont keep their promises. Maybe they should throw away their politicas and become recruitment agents

Mind you they would not be able to claim that their earnings were as a result of "hard work", they would have to change to "ill gotten"

[Jabberwocky]

[QUOTE=DodgyAgent]I thought the German economy thrived after Hitler was dead and after the war. Correct me if I am wrong QUOTE]

No Germany flourished when Hitler came to power in the thirties and there were plenty of state handouts - for infrastructure, armaments, mothers, children, motorways, railways. Hitler poured cash into the German economy which was raped by the captialist governments of the US, Britain after WWI. He provided jobs and prosperity for a while.

Every right wing goverment gives state handouts - thing is it goes to the rich corporates rather than the poor. Take the US and Haliburtion for example.

[hyperD]

Maybe they should throw away their politicas and become recruitment agents

Pah! Give me the capitalist environment of a recruitment agent anytime vs the artificially engineered snug, adjusted comfort blanket of the socialist.

I'd rather face a wideboy in a free market than a pinko in an government subsidised market anytime.

Sorts out the real businesses from the temps - "You want me? Found someone cheaper? Ah, but can you afford to risk the cheaper gig with the guaranteed, added value, 100% renewable, increased business contacts and rolloverable resource?".