Tax

[Julius Caesar]

Or having to pay 75% if you live alone as the family of 5 next door.

Wasn't there a British Prime Minister who came up with a much fairer system of paying for local council services? What was her name?

If it's a fee for the services, then a flat fee might be fair.

If it's a tax, then a progressive income tax is much fairer.

If you can't tell the difference between a fee and a tax ....

[BolshieBastard]

While tax rate is an issue, I think the bigger issue is that people be allowed to minimise the rate of tax they pay.

Unfortunately, HMRC are moving away from this and instead starting to follow what one judge described as paying 'one's fair share' irrespective of legislation to determine how much tax you pay.

[Julius Caesar]

In Holland we have a top rate of tax at 52% for people earning more than 54,000 euros. That’s a lot of people, very few of whom actually pay it, because there is still mortgage interest tax relief. Also, many people bring their taxable income down by working partly or wholly from their own business. Others who don’t have these options open maximize non-taxable income by giving untaxed gifts to their kids. Those without kids and no other options to lower their tax burden just start working less hours. Holland has a huge part time workforce; many people actually choose to accept a bit less income in return for more free time because if you have a good hourly rate or wage there’s just no point in working beyond about 32 hours per week. The labour party here have suggested raising the top rate of tax to 60%; the labour minister of finance, who is luckily a bit less mad than his party members has said he won’t do that because it would damage the economy and wouldn’t raise any money.

That's very interesting but IMHO it has nothing to do with the original question.

[Mich the Tester]

Do you believe that there is a point at which the rate becomes such as to alter the type of action that the tax constitutes, or the type of government that is doing it?

I don’t know. That’s why I ask the question; to find out the opinions of the congregation. I think there is an issue here though. Each year I give a large amount of money to the tax man. Some of this is spent on stuff that is obviously necessary, like transport infrastructure, education, defence, security, the law and so on.

A lot is spent on ‘solidarity’ with ‘the poor’; the tax rates are a means of redistributing income. Now then, I’m all in favour of helping poor people to get out of their rut and improve life for themselves. Now if I saw that the money I give to the government was succeeding in reducing poverty and helping people to fend for themselves, I wouldn’t be so bothered. But I don’t; I see the same people getting the money year after year until their kids then get the welfare money, and their kids, and their kids, and so on. So money is taken from me, not to break the cycle of poverty, but to subsidize poverty and to provide second rate hay and a run down barn for human cattle. I also see that a huge amount of money gets stuck in the system, not financing genuine solidarity with people who are less fortunate than me, but financing the administration of huge government agencies employing people who, well meaning or not, basically make a living from the subsidized misery of some and the involuntary contribution of others. That’s where I see the theft.

[TimberWolf]

I also see that a huge amount of money gets stuck in the system, not financing genuine solidarity with people who are less fortunate than me, but financing the administration of huge government agencies employing people who, well meaning or not, basically make a living from the subsidized misery of some and the involuntary contribution of others. That’s where I see the theft.

Yeah, council tax is mainly used to fill the index linked wage packets of the council elites. Councils afraid to say how much they pay chiefs

[AtW]

Or having to pay 75% if you live alone as the family of 5 next door.

This makes me

[Gibbon]

Yeah, council tax is mainly used to fill the index linked wage packets of the council elites. Councils afraid to say how much they pay chiefs

Great isn't it, I pay 1.5 K in Council Tax and my Wife gets 70K back for doing almost nothing (sometimes she does the sandwich run to Harvey Nichs).

[Julius Caesar]

Now if I saw that the money I give to the government was succeeding in reducing poverty and helping people to fend for themselves, I wouldn’t be so bothered. But I don’t; I see the same people getting the money year after year until their kids then get the welfare money, and their kids, and their kids, and so on. So money is taken from me, not to break the cycle of poverty, but to subsidize poverty

That I agree with. I think I'd be happy to be Swedish, because it works. I too resent paying what is a lot of money no matter what the %age, only to see it squandered, when it could be used to do great good.

And I do think that politicians have just become used to having mind-boggling sums of money to waste, and their only thought it to get hold of more. In that sense the kleptocracy is long since installed (and IMHO didn't go away in the 1980s either).

[Julius Caesar]

You must be very young.

It was deemed very acceptable to take even more back in the 70s.

That's what I meant when I said that 50% seems like a psychological barrier now. It was not always so.