'No Borders' and their 'Freedom of movement' camp

[Mich the Tester]

OK so you are a terrified peasant in a third world country regularly abused by the soldiers etc. How do you save the £2k -> £10K you need for the people traffickers?

You don't. You borrow it from the traffickers at an extortionate interest rate on pain of working for them in an illegal sweatshop or smuggling drugs for them, and if you don't repay them they kill your family.

[GreenerGrass]

Country A sends it's young physically fit men to fight against the Taliban in Country B to "liberate" them, meanwhile the young physically fit men in Country B (that could join Country B's own army or police so Country A can feck off) instead come to Country A to get free benefits and a house.

[Mich the Tester]

Country A sends it's young physically fit men to fight against the Taliban in Country B to "liberate" them, meanwhile the young physically fit men in Country B (that could join Country B's own army or police so Country A can flip off) instead come to Country A to get free benefits and a house.

Well yes, given the choice of getting my arse shot to pieces or skinned alive by the Taliban for a measly wage while using tulipe equipment or sodding off somewhere else hoping to get a job but claiming benefits because they won't let me work, I'd sod off too. And yes, I'd sell crack on the streets to survive. I'd rob the shops, mug people if necessary, and if it really came down to survival I too would probably sell my arse on the streets. I'm not ashamed to say that; it's called 'survival instinct'.

In all this Daily Wailing, NOT ONE PERSON has suggested a solution to the very complex issue of migration (except me, but I was shot down for suggesting we let them get jobs). WHY? Because the people with the loudest mouths and the strongest opinions about 'illegal immigrants' and 'asylum seekers' would appear to be the people with the least knowledge of what's actually going on.

The reality is that life in many third world tulipholes is so desperately awful that people will literally do ANYTHING to get out of there, even if that means doing something awful or criminal. While that's the case, we're going to have to learn to live with migration. I'm not saying 'throw the borders open', I'm saying it's time to get real and start thinking practically about this. Just as one other poster pointed to the idiotic 'war on drugs' which probably does more damage to humanity than all the drugs in the world, the war on migration is a senseless and hopeless lie propagated by politicians who like to make it look as though they're capable of doing something about an intractable issue. Continually fighting against migration instead of finding ways to make it work is probably causing more damage and suffering than all the migrants in the world put together.

[Mich the Tester]

So when all of Africa, Asia, China etc. has immigrated here, we can go to their countries & rule them again as we did before.

I like it.

It's A Cunning Plan.

That's not what I said, and you're demonstrating why it's impossible to hold a sensible debate about migration. Just as people who says they want to stop or control migration are quickly branded fascists, people who say they think the current attempts at stopping migration are doomed to fail, but that some means must be found to allow migration and get the benefits from it have their arguments misrepresented as 'oh so everybody can move here'. The issue is intractable, partly because the people who make the most noise about immigrants lack the intellectual capacity, or are simply to lazy, to conduct a debate without resorting to straw man arguments, excluded middles and arguments based on emotion as opposed to knowledge of the facts.

[Mich the Tester]

The issue certainly is intractable... however it often appalls me that people with useful skills & talents are sent back, while the complete wasters remain here on their benefits.

This is a very big part of the problem. There are lots of people living in turd world tulipholes who could be very productive given half a chance; you only have to visit the average marketplace in West Africa to see people with an enormous talent for entrepreneurship and organisation in very tough circumstances. Take a look inside a car repair garage in India and see the skills of people who seem to repair the irrepairable; add to that the university graduates of countries which despite their poverty or corruption, still seem to run a couple of fine universities; Iran comes to mind.

Trouble is, if those people are allowed to stay and become succesful as many inevitably would, then uneducated numpties in the west, who've had all the opportunities but done nothing with them, will then whinge about 'those foreigners taking my job'. Add to that, we actually need people to do crappy jobs like picking fruit, labouring on farms, inspecting tins and so on, and none of our own people want to do those jobs. So why should an employer be denied the opportunity to employ a motivated person who actually wants to earn a living doing work nobody else wants? Should farmers just accept that they have to leave tens of thousands of pounds worth of, for example, asparagus, to rot in the ground because nobody is prepared to come and pick them? Or should western consumers accept that they'll have to pay more for their food to pay higher wages to farm labourers?

It's an issue where too many people want to have their cake and eat it. You can't have cheap food, cheap TVs, cheap clothes and so on without either;
- exporting jobs to turd world tulipholes where illiterate children work like hell to stitch your pants together while our own uneducated numpties ign on the dole

or

- accepting that there'll be migrants coming here to do the tulipty jobs

or

- get used to stuff being more expensive