Police seize £67K cash from man because "he could not prove where the money came from

[expat]

Sorry expat but I believe that citizenhood shouldn't be taken for granted.

If you wish to be part of society then your rights come with responsibilities.
...
This isn't an issue about privacy at all. That's a media smokescreen.

It's an issue about honesty and openess with the legal authorities.

You are taking the authoritarian view that freedom is given to the people by the government. I take the view that powers are given to the government by the people. All the government's just powers derive from the consent of the people, ALL of them; and the people cannot delegate any powers that they do not themselves rightfully possess.

Government powers versus individual liberty is most emphatically not a two-way deal that the individual must agree to: it is a one-way delegation, from the sovereign people to their employees the government.

[Churchill]

You are taking the authoritarian view that freedom is given to the people by the government. I take the view that powers are given to the government by the people. All the government's just powers derive from the consent of the people, ALL of them; and the people cannot delegate any powers that they do not themselves rightfully possess.

Government powers versus individual liberty is most emphatically not a two-way deal that the individual must agree to: it is a one-way delegation, from the sovereign people to their employees the government.

And that chaps and chapesses is why we're f**ked without a constitution!

[Board Game Geek]

Churchy wrote : BGG, "Star Chamber"

Ring any bells?

A man is innocent until proven guilty!

Unfortunately, as nice as it would be if we could apply that maxim all the time, there are some very sophisticated criminals which use the above as a shield to protect their crimes.

<knock on the door>
Police : Open up, we know you are in there.

Man : Ok. <opens door>

Police look around : Hmm, do you usually have 67K laying around Sir ?

Man : None of your business

Police : Ok. How was this money obtained ?

Man : None of your business. I'm innocent.

Police : Oh, alright then. Sorry to bother you. <Drive away back to the Nick for some tea and jammie dodgers

Constable : Er Sarge, you don't suppose that man was telling fibberoonies do you ?

Sarge : No lad. Innocent until proven guilty. We have no right to ask people where there money came from, because it upsets the libertarians. We mustn't intrude you see, m'lad.

Constable : But supposing that man is using the money for drugs laundering and people are dying out there on the streets, and we could have nicked him ?

Sarge : Suppose a lot of things lad. We need proof and cooperation and the man didn't want to assist us. I just hope that your suspicions are not true, because the next customer of his who buys a hit and OD's might be daughter of Lord Flibblewot, the Human Rights campaigner. He'll be the first to complain that we should have done something.

Constable : So, basically Sarge, we are damned if we do and damned if we don't then ?

Sarge : Aye lad. Everyone likes a nice, well-behaved and ordered society. Just as long as it's not they who are the ones who have to be nice, well-behaved and ordered.

Constable : Sarge ? Can#t we just take off and nuke the place from orbit ?

Sarge : Are you mad lad ? I've haven't finished this pack of jammie dodgers yet. And besides, if we had weapons of mass destruction, we'd have to arrest ourselves.

Constable : Do we have WMD's Sarge ?

Sarge : I refuse to answer that. I'm innocent. Until I pull the trigger.

[bogeyman]

Unfortunately, as nice as it would be if we could apply that maxim all the time, there are some very sophisticated criminals which use the above as a shield to protect their crimes. ...

Of course, it's obvious! We are all the 'yet to be convicted'.

Clearly you are comfortable with this premise, others are less so.

You would have done well in 1930s Berlin, until the knock on the door was for you.

[expat]

BGG, "Star Chamber"

Ring any bells?

A man is innocent until proven guilty!

Unfortunately, as nice as it would be if we could apply that maxim all the time, there are some very sophisticated criminals which use the above as a shield to protect their crimes.

I rest my case. BGG is proven guilty of the desire to exercise unjust power over guilty and innocent alike.

[threaded]

So, an ordinary person can have his £67k confiscated. Whereas some Lord whose predecessors can be shown to have stolen the wealth they now possess is given state funds, potentially from the money confiscated from the now poor person.

[Churchill]

Unfortunately, as nice as it would be if we could apply that maxim all the time, there are some very sophisticated criminals which use the above as a shield to protect their crimes.

<knock on the door>
Police : Open up, we know you are in there.

Man : Ok. <opens door>

Police look around : Hmm, do you usually have 67K laying around Sir ?

Man : None of your business

Police : Ok. How was this money obtained ?

Man : None of your business. I'm innocent.

Police : Oh, alright then. Sorry to bother you. <Drive away back to the Nick for some tea and jammie dodgers

Constable : Er Sarge, you don't suppose that man was telling fibberoonies do you ?

Sarge : No lad. Innocent until proven guilty. We have no right to ask people where there money came from, because it upsets the libertarians. We mustn't intrude you see, m'lad.

Constable : But supposing that man is using the money for drugs laundering and people are dying out there on the streets, and we could have nicked him ?

Sarge : Suppose a lot of things lad. We need proof and cooperation and the man didn't want to assist us. I just hope that your suspicions are not true, because the next customer of his who buys a hit and OD's might be daughter of Lord Flibblewot, the Human Rights campaigner. He'll be the first to complain that we should have done something.

Constable : So, basically Sarge, we are damned if we do and damned if we don't then ?

Sarge : Aye lad. Everyone likes a nice, well-behaved and ordered society. Just as long as it's not they who are the ones who have to be nice, well-behaved and ordered.

Constable : Sarge ? Can#t we just take off and nuke the place from orbit ?

Sarge : Are you mad lad ? I've haven't finished this pack of jammie dodgers yet. And besides, if we had weapons of mass destruction, we'd have to arrest ourselves.

Constable : Do we have WMD's Sarge ?

Sarge : I refuse to answer that. I'm innocent. Until I pull the trigger.

It is not the police who choose to prosecute, it is the CPS or Crown Prosecution Service. The CPS make their decision based on the evidence provided by the Police.

You're forgetting "Due Process".

[Board Game Geek]

As far as the story reads, the police didn't just knock on his door, barge their way in and conficate the lolly.

He was given an opportunity to explain himself, chose not to, and the police then decided to speak to other agencies as part of their investigation.

Note the word : investigation.

This is quite obviously a "live" investigation, and as such, we can all agree that none of us are privvy to the full circumstances behind their visit.

We can also agree that whatever spin the media have put upon it, they are also not in possession of all the operational facts, since the police will not release such information during an ongoing investigation.

Basically, we're all wrong and jumping to all sorts of conclusions, based on the little evidence we have read, which we know is lacking in its paucity.

As for expat's comments about the people giving the government the powers they wish them to utilise, then that's a given since we elect them in the first place. True, we don't elect them to execute specific powers, just broad brush strokes. It's up to the authorities to interpret the specifics and up to us to protest if we feel that they have gone too far in their own interpretation.

However, I've got an army of Space Marines to put together, and since I'm not an MP nor a member of a lobby group, this discussion is a waste of my time.

[Churchill]

As far as the story reads, the police didn't just knock on his door, barge their way in and conficate the lolly.

He was given an opportunity to explain himself, chose not to, and the police then decided to speak to other agencies as part of their investigation.

Note the word : investigation.

This is quite obviously a "live" investigation, and as such, we can all agree that none of us are privvy to the full circumstances behind their visit.

We can also agree that whatever spin the media have put upon it, they are also not in possession of all the operational facts, since the police will not release such information during an ongoing investigation.

Basically, we're all wrong and jumping to all sorts of conclusions, based on the little evidence we have read, which we know is lacking in its paucity.

As for expat's comments about the people giving the government the powers they wish them to utilise, then that's a given since we elect them in the first place. True, we don't elect them to execute specific powers, just broad brush strokes. It's up to the authorities to interpret the specifics and up to us to protest if we feel that they have gone too far in their own interpretation.

However, I've got an army of Space Marines to put together, and since I'm not an MP nor a member of a lobby group, this discussion is a waste of my time.

It didn't f**king stop you from voicing an opinion though, did it?

[Peoplesoft bloke]

Unfortunately, as nice as it would be if we could apply that maxim all the time, there are some very sophisticated criminals which use the above as a shield to protect their crimes.

<knock on the door>
Police : Open up, we know you are in there.

Man : Ok. <opens door>

Police look around : Hmm, do you usually have 67K laying around Sir ?

Man : None of your business

Police : Ok. How was this money obtained ?

Man : None of your business. I'm innocent.

Police : Oh, alright then. Sorry to bother you. <Drive away back to the Nick for some tea and jammie dodgers

Constable : Er Sarge, you don't suppose that man was telling fibberoonies do you ?

Sarge : No lad. Innocent until proven guilty. We have no right to ask people where there money came from, because it upsets the libertarians. We mustn't intrude you see, m'lad.

Bollocks. I'm quite happy for the Police to ask where any of my dosh came from - but it's entirely my choice (or has been until recently) not to answer if I don't want to. Why is having a large amount of cash suddenly grounds for having to prove where it came from? What's next, having to prove where you got the cash for that watch or that car because plod thinks you look a bit scruffy/young/black etc for it?

Utter nonsense - if the Police have any evidence then they can use it otherwise in a civilised society they must move along.

I too have had some eyeopening experience with our wonderful boys in blue that proves they aren't all as trustworthy decent and honest as you might like to imagine with your "everyone must tell them everything" line.