Mandelson calls protests 'xenophobic'

[Sysman]

It’s best to learn a Germanic language, most obviously German, and a latin language like French, Italian or Spanish. That way you can easily learn other languages in mainland Europe’s two major language groups.

I'll second that. With German and French (and a smattering of now rusty Dutch), I can get by in much of Europe.

Spanish has to be a strong contender for choice of latin language as it opens up large chunks of Central and South America.

[Doggy Styles]

I'll second that. With German and French (and a smattering of now rusty Dutch), I can get by in much of Europe.

Yes. I got away without German to get a job there, but I soon found I needed German after all because, contrary to everything I'd heard, only a small minority of Germans outside the workplace spoke English - neighbours, people in shops, people in bars, at the footy, etc.

So I packed myself off to German lessons.

[threaded]

That's a huge generalisation. The most noticeable issue in discrimination is that continental employers tend to expect you to speak the local language; I don't consider that discrimination for most jobs though. Unfortunately that works out badly for some British people who don't seem to be all that strong when it comes to learning a language. My experience is that if you speak the language, most people in most places will treat you as an equal.

You should see one countries language exam (which is required for many jobs if you're a foreigner). It is so difficult that when they had some native born try it, they all failed... And it gets better: to work as a Doctor, Dentist, Lawyer etc. the required score is not just a pass, but a pass at a higher level. The exam is also structured in such a way that certain native tongues and cultures find it especially difficult...

It's a not all that new a thing they brought in, but recently they expanded the coverage and upped the difficulty. For example I know of a Dentist that's been practising here for 20+ years and recently they said he'd have to do this new exam to continue working (even though he works in an area of the country where they give a substantial bonus to Doctors and Dentists to work as no native people will work there otherwise). He's been given 6 months, it's a 3 year course...

It has a fun flip side, in trying to stop foreigners taking good civil service jobs they insisted on a language qualification for higher posts. Now as 75% of school leavers fail the equivalent of a CSE in the language the biggest pool of available staff is the foreigners...

[Mich the Tester]

You should see one countries language exam (which is required for many jobs if you're a foreigner). It is so difficult that when they had some native born try it, they all failed... And it gets better: to work as a Doctor, Dentist, Lawyer etc. the required score is not just a pass, but a pass at a higher level. The exam is also structured in such a way that certain native tongues and cultures find it especially difficult...

They tried that BS in Holland, and found that foreigners who took the trouble actually passed very easily, but locals failed the language exams. I haven’t heard anything about it since.

They do have a bulltulip requirement for translators; to get official accreditation for English-Dutch or Dutch-English you have to get a Dutch university degree in English, and there’s no way around the requirement, like an exam for people who’ve grown up bilingual. That makes official translators artificially expensive, as well as being nowhere near as good as bilingual people. So what happens? The effect of this is that unaccredited translators get all the work, especially the better paid technical translation work, and the officially accredited translators just get the boring job of rubber stamping legal documents translated by someone else and struggle to get any work at all beyond translating marriage certificates.

When governments attempt to manipulate markets, markets always win.

[threaded]

They tried that BS in Holland, and found that foreigners who took the trouble actually passed very easily, but locals failed the language exams. I haven’t heard anything about it since.

They do have a bulltulip requirement for translators; to get official accreditation for English-Dutch or Dutch-English you have to get a Dutch university degree in English, and there’s no way around the requirement, like an exam for people who’ve grown up bilingual. That makes official translators artificially expensive, as well as being nowhere near as good as bilingual people. So what happens? The effect of this is that unaccredited translators get all the work, especially the better paid technical translation work, and the officially accredited translators just get the boring job of rubber stamping legal documents translated by someone else and struggle to get any work at all beyond translating marriage certificates.

When governments attempt to manipulate markets, markets always win.

Yes they have the two types of translators here also. There are even two different words, much like 'translator' and 'interpreter', but not quite that distinct in meaning. It is a legal requirement to have a certain degree level qualification to call yourself a translator, the other doesn't need it. So you find in old books a credit as being 'Translated from X by Joe', but in new books they're 'Interpreted by Fred', which reads as ridiculous as it does in English.

[expat]

They tried that BS in Holland, and found that foreigners who took the trouble actually passed very easily, but locals failed the language exams. I haven’t heard anything about it since.

They do have a bulltulip requirement for translators; to get official accreditation for English-Dutch or Dutch-English you have to get a Dutch university degree in English, and there’s no way around the requirement, like an exam for people who’ve grown up bilingual.

IMHO the inescapable requirement for a good translator is that the target language be one that is native to them. Thus only bilingual people will be good in both directions of a given pair.

One may write in a language that is not native (although few are really good at it, and the number who have written lasting literature in a non-native language is countable on one hand), but one should not be a profassional translator into it.

[Mich the Tester]

Yes they have the two types of translators here also. There are even two different words, much like 'translator' and 'interpreter', but not quite that distinct in meaning. It is a legal requirement to have a certain degree level qualification to call yourself a translator, the other doesn't need it. So you find in old books a credit as being 'Translated from X by Joe', but in new books they're 'Interpreted by Fred', which reads as ridiculous as it does in English.

When unions or guilds demand protectionist policies and governments give in, the members end up unemployed and the government ends up taxing us all for a department that checks up on qualifications hardly anyone bothers to get.

In the case of translation and interpretation, it’s truly stupid. There’s simply no way that someone who’s spent four years at university studying a language can do the job as well as, never mind better than, someone who’s grown up with more than one language and gained an education along the way.

[Sysman]

Yes. I got away without German to get a job there, but I soon found I needed German after all because, contrary to everything I'd heard, only a small minority of Germans outside the workplace spoke English - neighbours, people in shops, people in bars, at the footy, etc.

So I packed myself off to German lessons.

Yep, there are plenty of places where you can do your work in English, particularly in IT, but if you don't learn the local lingo you are going to find it hard work getting by in the rest of life.

[Mich the Tester]

IMHO the inescapable requirement for a good translator is that the target language be one that is native to them. Thus only bilingual people will be good in both directions of a given pair.

One may write in a language that is not native (although few are really good at it, and the number who have written lasting literature in a non-native language is countable on one hand), but one should not be a profassional translator into it.

I can think of a few writers and artists who’ve done well in a second language. Peter Ustinov and Isaac Asimov come to mind.

I first learnt Dutch living in NL as a child, then learnt German and French in Switzerland and forgot a lot of Dutch, then learnt Dutch again and forgot a lot of German. English is the one language that was always present around me as my parents are British. I switch from Dutch to English and back almost unconsciously as both languages are pretty deeply ingrained. Unusually, I have a slightly 'foreign' accent in both, which sometimes confuses people.

[expat]

I can think of a few writers and artists who’ve done well in a second language. Peter Ustinov and Isaac Asimov come to mind.

Wikip on Asimov:
His family emigrated to the United States when he was three years old. Since his parents always spoke Yiddish and English with him, he never learned Russian.

Ustinov:
Ustinov was born in Swiss Cottage, London....
Ustinov was educated at Westminster School

So they're not really what I meant. Nabokov is the one that springs immediately to mind; Conrad is often quoted, though Nabokov dismissed him (as a non-native writer) because, unlike Nabokov himself, he didn't write in his own language at first and only later write in English; Conrad wrote only in English.

Worth mentioning Izak Dinesen (Karen Blixen) who wrote in Danish and then translated into English; whether that is the same as (re-)writing in English is debatable.