PM, PM or PM

[wendigo100]

I love it when contractors talk about management.

It is like atheists talking about god.

Chico

[Francko]

I love it when contractors talk about management.

Contractors do probably know more about management than managers themselves, as a matter of fact most of the decisions are taken by them (although of course the credit is taken by managers). Now, if you are talking about taking credit for other people's work then you are probably right, that is something that contractors have to learn about.

[sasguru]

Contractors do probably know more about management than managers themselves, as a matter of fact most of the decisions are taken by them (although of course the credit is taken by managers). Now, if you are talking about taking credit for other people's work then you are probably right, that is something that contractors have to learn about.

The problem with techies is that they lack imagination and can never see the big picture. Stick to your code-monkeying and leave the hard stuff to us.

[Tonic]

Alot of Project managers are just account managers who talk to developers and relay that the project's current state of affairs is not good enough and they want 6 new features added in that weren't in the initial spec, or even in the overall scope of the project.

My general experiance is that Project Managers generally dont know what's going on because they have no relative tech savvy at all.

The "project manager" i'm currently working under, is so far out of his league, he's need 2 and 6 pence, to catch the bus back.

I, personally, would do a HUGE amount better than him, but I would call myself "Head of Development" and talk to the client via the Account Manager.. of course, after I wake up from my dream and face reality again, I'll end up talking straight down the line to the client.. which to be honest, takes balls for a permie to do, because they want stability, and cant afford to be sacked cos they lost a client.

You're not gonna loose a client, if you get the results, on time, mostly on budget. (there's more to it than that, but I'd ramble on for ages if I said )

[shoes]

What we are seeing in this thread is how the management types think they know better than the techies, and the techies think they know better than the management types. Each case is different of course. I come from the techie side and in my experience you get clueless developers just as you get clueless management. But speaking as a ('bums on seats') contractor, so what? As a permie at the start of my 'career' I was constantly being fustrated by the stupidity of management, like you see in dilbert. Now that Im a contractor, the more inept the management are, the longer the project takes, the more money I make. Managers, please keep up your delusions of self importance that allow you to have the confidence to follow through on your ridiculous ideas. Thanks.

[Francko]

What we are seeing in this thread is how the management types think they know better than the techies, and the techies think they know better than the management types. Each case is different of course. I come from the techie side and in my experience you get clueless developers just as you get clueless management.

I disagree with that. Clueless techies get spot on almost immediately (and most of the time they don't have political skills like credit taking, other people blaming, pointless debating etc. to defend themselves) while many managers can get away even if they are clueless. I wouldn't totally agree with your vision that clueless managers can help your contract. True they might prolonge it more than needed but in the end you will appear responsible for not delivering in time.

[Tonic]

I disagree with that. Clueless techies get spot on almost immediately (and most of the time they don't have political skills like credit taking, other people blaming, pointless debating etc. to defend themselves) while many managers can get away even if they are clueless. I wouldn't totally agree with your vision that clueless managers can help your contract. True they might prolonge it more than needed but in the end you will appear responsible for not delivering in time.

people who insinuate I'm not good at my job, really piss me off. Bad management makes me look bad, and stops me getting better portfolio. Also the stress factor of having to produce goods to your own high standards but with poor management is almost non negotiable.

The only way you can possibly look at a contract like that, is that you're getting paid for it, so to hell with them, let them screw it up, do what you gotta do.. and get paid, week in, week out.

[VectraMan]

people who insinuate I'm not good at my job, really piss me off. Bad management makes me look bad, and stops me getting better portfolio. Also the stress factor of having to produce goods to your own high standards but with poor management is almost non negotiable.

The problem is if the PM type is a permie, chances are the more senior management will see you as the problem for not being able to work with him, as you're a lot more dispensible. And to me blaming other people even if it's completely justified feels like making excuses for myself. So instead I'll get stressed and miserable and try and do a good job despite the idiots in management. It's a cliche, but that's what being a "team player" is all about.

[shoes]

I disagree with that. Clueless techies get spot on almost immediately (and most of the time they don't have political skills like credit taking, other people blaming, pointless debating etc. to defend themselves) while many managers can get away even if they are clueless.

I think its easier to hide your incompetence if you are providing 'soft skills' such as a team leader/management type role, but I've worked with good and bad in both camps.

I wouldn't totally agree with your vision that clueless managers can help your contract. True they might prolonge it more than needed but in the end you will appear responsible for not delivering in time.

Ive known situations where a contractor has been bought in solely to be a scape goat for a failing project, in those cases the need for a contractor is there solely due to poor management. Also a project may be running late requiring a 'ramping up' of 'resources' (to use pointy haired boss speak) creating a requirement for contractors that may not have come about were it not for the project being poorly managed up to that point. I think the need for contractors would be dramatically reduced if all the PMs of various types woke up tommorrow suddenly good at their jobs. Long may the cluelessness continue.

Sure you can be blamed for not delivering when it isn't your fault. It happens all the time to contractors and permies. You need to be thick skinned as a contractor I think, comes with the gig.

[shoes]

instead I'll get stressed and miserable and try and do a good job despite the idiots in management. It's a cliche, but that's what being a "team player" is all about.

Why are you stressed? Understandable if you're a permie, but not if you're on a contract. Do what you can, but you won't be there long. Just keep firing off the invoices, this is why you are there. You aren't looking for a 'promotion' or working all hours in the hope of an annual 5% pay increase. Invoice invoice invoice, gig ends, time off, rinse, repeat.