Are Pm's needed (loaded question I know)

[Francko]

Ah, if only running a project was like making honey. Or maybe a better statement is if only people were like bees. If everyone just knew what they were doing and did it, then I agree there is no need for PMs.

Luckily for me, people are not like bees.

If honey was equally shared as in the bees world, then people would behave like bees.

[oracleslave]

You're not that sour old bitch Deborah Meaden are you?

She is a grumpy old bird isn't she.

[ruskithebear]

Without giving too much away, the premise is that PMs are basically useless bottlenecks who, instead of taking the load off the implementors of any task, simply burden them with crap and line-reporting overheads.

Bee hives don't have 'project manager' bees.

Thats because a lot of PM's think the "methodology will save them" and have no concept of what the implementors, engineers etc actually do on a day to day basis.

I like what your saying bogeyman and I am happy to put up 5000 drachma for 99.99% of your company, but only if oracleslave puts in forr the other .01%

[bogeyman]

Good PMs reduce the amount of crap implementors have to deal with.

Bees don't work to budgets and schedules or post on CUK all day.

I am a PM and I do get sick of having to push people and get updates all the time but clients have expectations and my main job is managing them.

Anyway, enough from me...

Indeed Beaker, GOOD PMs are worth their weight in honey.

However, most PMs (in my experience) are mediocre techs or poor junior mgt promoted into a position that gets them out of HRs way and into everyone else's.

BTW I suspect bees have their own forums that they post on all day long when they are supposed to be gathering pollen (BeeBo probably).

[oracleslave]

Thats because a lot of PM's think the "methodology will save them" and have no concept of what the implementors, engineers etc actually do on a day to day basis.

I like what your saying bogeyman and I am happy to put up 5000 drachma for 99.99% of your company, but only if oracleslave puts in forr the other .01%

Feel free to throw away your childrens inheritance on this hair-brained scheme. I'm out.

[badger7579]

Thats because a lot of PM's think the "methodology will save them" and have no concept of what the implementors, engineers etc actually do on a day to day basis.

I like what your saying bogeyman and I am happy to put up 5000 drachma for 99.99% of your company, but only if oracleslave puts in forr the other .01%

The methodology will not save anyone, I agree. You need much more than that. But the point is that the Pm is managing the work being produced, I dont need or want to know the details of how its done. Thats your job not mine..

[ruskithebear]

Feel free to throw away your childrens inheritance on this hair-brained scheme. I'm out.

Then I'm out too!!

[bogeyman]

Feel free to throw away your childrens inheritance on this hair-brained scheme. I'm out.

Hey listen. There are millions (even billions) to be made in the next management 'paradigm shift'.

If we can pitch this concept so that everyone from dept. manager level up can just goof off all day, with a clear conscience, then I'm sure they will buy into it totally.

Of course, we take the risk that the people that actually DO the work and make things happen won't suddenly go haywire, but they haven't yet. So I think it's a sound proposition.

[badger7579]

I've typed 2 replies and they haven't showed..... Sods law this one will

[51st State]

However, most PMs (in my experience) are mediocre techs or poor junior mgt promoted into a position that gets them out of HRs way and into everyone else's.

Sounds like you haven't got much experience then pal.

It's good to see that the factory-worker "us and them" mentality of drones like you still exist, even in geek world.

Now grunt after me "it's 80% complete, it'll be finished tomorrow".