Scots "workshy" according to Jackie Stewart

[lilelvis2000]

The lower end of the food chain is being forced down towards (if not at) minimum wage. Many people just can not afford to work at that rate.
Many businesses are being proped up by employing migrants who have lower overheads.

If an immigrant can live on minimum why cannot someone who is benefits live on it? I don't get that point. Obviously if you are indebt up to your eyeballs and expect your employer to feel sympathy and give you an increase - you're in the wrong system.

I think you are also missing out that many jobs natives just don't want to do. Immigrants are perfectly happy to do them. Why complain that immigrants are taking our jobs - when these would be jobs that 'we' wouldn't do anyway?

This is odd in a country where the overall eduation level is not particularily very high.

[The Lone Gunman]

The best incentives you can give these people (and it is not just the scots) is to give them the same incentives as the Poles, the Australians and the South Africans which is take their benefits away from them.

As for LG, that was not a point you made but a diatribe. You do not seem to understand that just as employers are free to hire people on low wages (as long as they are above the minimum) workers are free to hawk themselves to the higher payers.

And if what you are endorsing is that the minimum wage should rise then are you prepared to pay more for your hotel, beer, coffee? as the law of unintended consequences always applies itself whenever HMG passes legislation, you may find everyone else wanting higher wages to pay for the increases in labour costs.

Sorry if I went on a bit Dodgy, it is a bit of a pet subject. Problem is I dont have the answers. It is a complex problem.
I agree that the workshy should have their benefits adjusted. BUT some of the unemployed are there because of the minimum wage and the influx of foreign workers. Gets to be a vicious circle.

What I see is a return to victorian working conditions with owners throwing people out of work simply because they can replace them with a cheaper workforce. The cheaper workforce is only available because NL want to be seen as business friendly.

Yes I would be willing to pay more for my goods and services in this situation, but I would rather see a reduction in some of the scandalous profits declared by some of these companies first.
The alternative is an unemployed indigenous population and a country full of foreign workers on minimum wage.

[wendigo100]

The best incentives you can give these people (and it is not just the scots) is to give them the same incentives as the Poles, the Australians and the South Africans which is take their benefits away from them.

As for LG, that was not a point you made but a diatribe. You do not seem to understand that just as employers are free to hire people on low wages (as long as they are above the minimum) workers are free to hawk themselves to the higher payers.

And if what you are endorsing is that the minimum wage should rise then are you prepared to pay more for your hotel, beer, coffee? as the law of unintended consequences always applies itself whenever HMG passes legislation, you may find everyone else wanting higher wages to pay for the increases in labour costs.

But isn't this plethora of cheap labour from overseas a recent phenomenon (last five years)?

And has it reduced the prices of hotels, beer or coffee (or even stopped them rising)?

In which case, who is benefitting from them?

[sasguru]

The best incentives you can give these people (and it is not just the scots) is to give them the same incentives as the Poles, the Australians and the South Africans which is take their benefits away from them.

As for LG, that was not a point you made but a diatribe. You do not seem to understand that just as employers are free to hire people on low wages (as long as they are above the minimum) workers are free to hawk themselves to the higher payers.

And if what you are endorsing is that the minimum wage should rise then are you prepared to pay more for your hotel, beer, coffee? as the law of unintended consequences always applies itself whenever HMG passes legislation, you may find everyone else wanting higher wages to pay for the increases in labour costs.

Dodgy, while I agree with the basic thrust of your argument, it's not quite a level playing field when single Poles and Australians can live in shared accomodation while indigenous people have to support a family.

[sasguru]

But isn't this plethora of cheap labour from overseas a recent phenomenon (last five years)?

And has it reduced the prices of hotels, beer or coffee (or even stopped them rising)?

In which case, who is benefitting from them?

Good point.

[The Lone Gunman]

If an immigrant can live on minimum why cannot someone who is benefits live on it? I don't get that point. Obviously if you are indebt up to your eyeballs and expect your employer to feel sympathy and give you an increase - you're in the wrong system.

I think you are also missing out that many jobs natives just don't want to do. Immigrants are perfectly happy to do them. Why complain that immigrants are taking our jobs - when these would be jobs that 'we' wouldn't do anyway?

This is odd in a country where the overall eduation level is not particularily very high.

I agree that there are too many who won't work.
Migrants can often live a lot cheaper than residents and that i swhy they fill the lower paid jobs, the problem is that more and more jobs are becoming lower paid because of the availability of foreign workers. e.g. There is a harbour near where I live, it used to be a good source of income on a casual basis if you were short of cash. It was never a full time employer. You could turn up when ships were in and earn a good days wage (for a bloody hard days work). Many men turned up every day looking for casual work. Now it is a full time port it has permanent staff all on minimum wage, most of whom are foreign. The casuals who used to work there can no longer afford to work there as their costs have not gone down as wages have.
The port is making more money than ever. Wages will only go up when they run out of cheap labour or the locals have gone bankrupt, lost their houses (and probably family) and have had to start again.
It is a downward spiral that can not be good for the Country or the economy.

[Bagpuss]

Just wait until the Poles get into recruitment, working on margins of 5%

[DodgyAgent]

But isn't this plethora of cheap labour from overseas a recent phenomenon (last five years)?

And has it reduced the prices of hotels, beer or coffee (or even stopped them rising)?

In which case, who is benefitting from them?

I have always said that immigration is good when there are not enough people to do the jobs. These low wage workers are not competing for "our" jobs, over a matter of the odd £ an hour. They are here because we as a society choose to pay 4 million people to do nothing. How much does a benefit recipient need to make it worth his/her while to go back to work? An awful lot is the answer. And because we fail to educate our children properly, and because we keep so many people out of work for such a long time many of the 4 million unemployed are totally incapable of work anyway.

So these low earning immigrants may be undercutting the UK workforce, but even if wages were higher there still would not be anything like enough takers for these jobs.

LG, I am not quite sure why you have this problem with companies making profits.

If you stop and think about what you are saying for a moment you may like to consider where these profits go. Even if they do go into the pockets of fat cat businessmen then those profits are then spent on Aston Martins, yachts and hookers. So what? if you had your way and wished somehow to "regulate" profits then how do you think the factory workers at Aston Martin would feel?

Then of of course the worse thing that happens to profits is that a large chunk of them is stolen by the tax man to be squandered on paying people to sit at home all day. THAT's what I call immoral.

[The Lone Gunman]

I do not have anything against profits, I am just disturbed by the level of profit particularly from companies who insist on paying minimum wage yet refuse to reduce prices to consumers. Shell and BP announced phenominal profits this year (ISTR) yet the price of petrol at the pump is as high as it has ever been and I wonder how much the forecourt attendant earns?

As for Astons, well I do believe that are enough rich people out there to keep them going. I am not proposing people shouldnt profit from their businesses and investments, I am just asking for a responsible attitude towards the distribution of those profits.

As for tax, just remind me how much tax Philip Green paid this year would you. The super rich are dodging the tax man at every turn. Isn't the tax take reducing even though we have reduced unemployment?

This country courtesy of the present Govt. is haemoraging money for fun at the same time as it is undermining the lower paids ability to work.

[tim123]

Dodgy, while I agree with the basic thrust of your argument, it's not quite a level playing field when single Poles and Australians can live in shared accomodation while indigenous people have to support a family.

No-one *has* to support a family, people choose this option.

If they haven't got the job to enable them to support this lifestyle, then they shouldn't chose it.

I accept that there are people who, later in life, find themselves in this situation and that the system should help them. But there are many many more who have been work-shy all they life who think that they are entitled to have the state supporting them whilst they breed like rabbits.

In the sixties, if an unmarried girl had a kid, that her family couldn't afford to keep, it was taken away from her. Now we reward her for her stupidity (that's the kind word) with a house paid for by me. Oh I wish that I had been that stupid and irresponsible.

On the TV a few weeks ago was one of these <idiots> (or insert more insulting word of your choice) trotting out the usual mantra "I'm entitled to have children". To which my response is: "Yes Love you are, but you're not entitled to exect it's upbringing to be paid for by me".

BTW, many of the Poles do have families to pay for. I am sitting across from one right now.

tim