Clueless .....

[rootsnall]

Nothing wrong with that at all Den. That is to be admired. If you left it at that then great, but you don't, you come on here and denigrate people who don't take your view.

If you put as much effort into your business as you do into researching IR35 and trying to get everyone to dance to your tune then you'd probably be turning over a lot more with a few employees chucked in as well by now...

I don't fancy an IR35 pub debate with Denny after a few lagers, its only 10am !

[DodgyAgent]

I don't fancy an IR35 pub debate with Denny after a few lagers, its only 10am !

She will get nowhere whilst she regards relationships between businesses and people as adversarial, as exploiter and exploitee. She would be better off running a trade union

[threaded]

Nothing wrong with that at all Den. That is to be admired. If you left it at that then great, but you don't, you come on here and denigrate people who don't take your view.

If you put as much effort into your business as you do into researching IR35 and trying to get everyone to dance to your tune then you'd probably be turning over a lot more with a few employees chucked in as well by now...

There are many who take Dennys view. I worked with a permie who did websites on the side. He considered the websites thing was a real business, and what contractors do as not. Until the day the IR came calling and fscked him over well and proper. If he'd acted more like the contractors, i.e. more like a real business, things may well have been different.

[andy]

It would be interesting to see if Denny is ever investigated for ir35.
if only I could see it on youtube.

[threaded]

It would be interesting to see if Denny is ever investigated for ir35.
if only I could see it on youtube.

Doubtful, as Denny is a troll from the IR.

[bobhope]

Surely though: if one cannot predict ahead of time whether the tax man is going to investigate you, and what the outcome of such an investigation will be, and whether one can then argue successfully and to what extent against whatever charge is made on ones business, then that is a far higher entrepreneurial risk than any of the big consultancies ever ever ever take.

I wonder if that's a valid IR35 defence strategy:

"Of course I'm in business on my own account - I have the continual risk of being investigated by the IR, QED."

[PrinceNamor]

I'm glad I've seen this thread - it's pretty obvious that many of you are colluding with the service providers and other bandwagon jumpers keen to make a quick and convenient buck from the overpaid contracting market. It also seems apparent that the reason why most of you are in this game :

TAX AVOIDANCE (aided and abetted by the EB industry).

It seems clear to me that most of you should in fact be employed on a fixed term basis - paid pro rata salaries and given the rights you deserve to have as being temporary employees who work under client control and have none of the stresses and worries of running your own business.

There is no way that your mentality is either business-like or professional (ie. typical of what most limited co. operate under).

You also seem to fail to understand me completely.

When I went into business on my own account I wanted to do what business owners do.......be in business on my own account. Not act as if I am temporary casual worker engaged as a second class employee with no rights on site at the client's offices. When I work to my own clients I normally can and do work in business on my own account. I fail to see why it should be any different being sourced through an EB, particularly when they that tell me that I need to work as a limited company and that they have ir35 friendly contracts in place and that these are back to back with the client. After probing a bit, you will see very clearly that this is far from the case. Clearly the EB industry that deal with contractors is a sham and shouldn't exist under its current model at all. (Something I've been saying all along).

You all talk to me as if I don't know what the client wants in terms of hiring a perma temp and need telling.

Don't you think I am already aware of that?

Yes, I do turn a lot of potential work down that doesn't comply with my own business terms. That's because I want to work on my own account, not on someone else's terms that I would find highly inefficient, not to mention detrimental to the client in terms of getting work completed on time and to the required standard. If I can do the latter, it shouldn't matter how, where or when I work.

What is so apparent about this discussion is that EBs and clients want their cake and eat it too - that's why IR35 was introduced and that's why there is a big issue over the MSC issue. It is also abundantly clear to me that the clients are not hiring contractors for their expertise; instead they are hiring contractors very often to fill space and to act as unwitting motivation and retention bodies to prop up their already miserable employees. By doing so, they are encouraging us to operate outside the law. Hence, your stance - we can get away with not being inside ir35 - as if we're all robbing a bank or something. Oh, and lets not forget that the other reason client really hire contractors rather than FTEs is the added advantage of having a convenient scapegoat when things go pear shaped and they need someone not on the payroll to blame.

I don't see any of those 'hidden' services in my marketing literature and I doubt my PII would cover these eventualities either.

Unfortunately, it is precisely the mentality that most of you hold above that made this legislation and all its worries and concerns possible and what will ultimately floor the contracting and freelancing industry sooner or later.

Hopefully, you won't drag me down with you and everyone else who genuinely wants to operate as a bona fida business and take risks to work as they choose in such a manner that doesn't affect the client or the efficient running of my own business.

******

[Burdock]

******

I thought Denny's argument, although painful to a lot of posters (myself included!), was worth 6* as well!

Always useful to read arguments and counter-arguments, especially well-informed ones

[shoes]

Agencies place 'perma temps'. If thats not what your business sells then don't use them. Market your consultancy services to clients direct like other consultancies do. I wouldn't go into a barbers and have a go at them for cutting my hair when what I wanted was a hotdog.

[ASB]

So, in those terms, are not CSC, EDS, IBM consult, etc. etc. etc. also just temps and hence should only be allowed limited costs for accountancy fees etc. etc. I wouldn't mind if they were. But it is never going to happen as a level playing field would show just how much less expensive contractors are to these 'real' businesses.

Yes they are. As is the entire outsourcing of any description model. The onlu difference of course is that the law is specifically framed to allow them to operate in this way.