Brexit win - 11 threads into one

**Ruprect** · 25 October 2011, 07:28

It always happens doesn't it? Out of power - demand/promise referendum - In power, don't go near it with a barge pole:

David Cameron demands referendum on new EU constitution from Gordon Brown - Telegraph

David Cameron demands referendum on new EU constitution from Gordon Brown

David Cameron has demanded that Gordon Brown hold a referendum on the renegotiated European constitution claiming that he is "honour-bound" to call a public vote.

Launching the Conservatives campaign for the forthcoming European Parliament elections, the Conservative leader called on the Prime Minister to abandon his opposition to a referendum. The issue is expected to be crucial in the run-up to polling day on June 4.

Labour's 2005 general election manifesto promised that the Government would hold a referendum. However, Mr Brown has ratified the renegotiated constitution - known as the Lisbon Treaty - without a public vote. The Prime Minister claims that the Treaty is not a revised version of the constitution despite it being largely identical.

Mr Cameron said yesterday: "Where you stand on the referendum says a lot about your politics. It says a lot about how much you value trust between the government and the governed. I believe that if you make a promise in your manifesto, and the country votes on that manifesto, then you are honour-bound to keep that promise.

"Gordon Brown's flip-flopped on this before. First he was against the Constitution, then he was for it; one day he promised a referendum, the next he backtracked. While he has chopped and changed, our position has remained exactly the same. We are the only major party to have consistently said that it is up to the British people to decide on our future in Europe."

Mr Cameron repeated his pledge to hold a referendum if the constitution is not in force if the Conservatives are elected. However, it is not clear whether the Conservatives would hold a retrospective referendum if the constitution has not formally been introduced. Mr Cameron would campaign for the public to reject the constitution in any referendum.

**TimberWolf** · 25 October 2011, 08:32

Not sure if it was in the Tory manifesto, but shouldn't politicians be bound by what they say in election manifestos? Just to keep the democratic pretence going a bit.

**Churchill** · 25 October 2011, 08:35

Originally posted by TimberWolf View Post

Not sure if it was in the Tory manifesto, but shouldn't politicians be bound by what they say in election manifestos? Just to keep the democratic pretence going a bit.

The UK is not a "democracy".

**Peoplesoft bloke** · 25 October 2011, 08:39

Originally posted by TimberWolf View Post

Not sure if it was in the Tory manifesto, but shouldn't politicians be bound by what they say in election manifestos? Just to keep the democratic pretence going a bit.

No - events intervene - you'd have some ludicrous situations. I have mixed feelings about referendums - we'd potentially end up with some daft and dangerous laws if we only went on popular opinion.

**TimberWolf** · 25 October 2011, 08:43

Originally posted by Peoplesoft bloke View Post

No - events intervene - you'd have some ludicrous situations. I have mixed feelings about referendums - we'd potentially end up with some daft and dangerous laws if we only went on popular opinion.

So political parties make pretend (electable) manifestos and the electorate pretend to believe they mean anything and then pretend to be upset when they don't come true?

**Doggy Styles** · 25 October 2011, 08:45

Before we all get carried away with this, can someone explain to me who would gain out of holding a referendum?

Does anyone even know what the referendum question would be?

What is it for, what would it tell us that we don't already know?

Do we really want to stir this up at the very moment we are trying to avoid a financial meltdown?

It's not a case of "lack of democracy". I don't think many people have thought this through.

**Ruprect** · 25 October 2011, 08:48

Originally posted by Doggy Styles View Post

Before we all get carried away with this, can someone explain to me who would gain out of holding a referendum?

Does anyone even know what the referendum question would be?

What is it for, what would it tell us that we don't already know?

Do we really want to stir this up at the very moment we are trying to avoid a financial meltdown?

It's not a case of "lack of democracy". I don't think many people have thought this through.

Nothing to be gained at the moment - just something the euro-sceptics dredge up every now and then.

**Mich the Tester** · 25 October 2011, 08:49

Originally posted by Doggy Styles View Post

Before we all get carried away with this, can someone explain to me who would gain out of holding a referendum?

Does anyone even know what the referendum question would be?

What is it for, what would it tell us that we don't already know?

Do we really want to stir this up at the very moment we are trying to avoid a financial meltdown?

It's not a case of "lack of democracy". I don't think many people have thought this through.

Yep, pretty much the same questions here; especially this one; 'Do we really want to stir this up at the very moment we are trying to avoid a financial meltdown?'

And as for shouting 'lack of democracy' barely a year after a general election, I think that's just silly. The coalition was formed by parties who represent a majority and who both officially (despite some of their MPs) support membership of the EU; there will be another chance to vote in a few years time.

**Peoplesoft bloke** · 25 October 2011, 08:51

Originally posted by TimberWolf View Post

So political parties make pretend (electable) manifestos and the electorate pretend to believe they mean anything and then pretend to be upset when they don't come true?

I think that's an entirely fair summary.

Brexit win - 11 threads into one