Why the floodgates are open

[mcquiggd]

but if those people stay in India or wherever then their breakeven point is much lower, I'd rather compete with a guy who wants to earn 5-10k less than me in this country, than with the same guy in another country where he could live okay on salary 20-30k less.

I wouldn't. The increase in population increases the amount of housing that is built, lessens my chances of finding a job at whatever salary, dilutes my culture, lowers the quality of life of the majority of people, and endangers social cohesion.

[Edited for typo - lessons changed to lessens]

[mcquiggd]

Agreed, Alexei. Except the last two future members, which will be f*&^% up in order for UK politicians to proudly say "Now we have immigration in control!" and grab some votes from mcquiggd...

It's only fair...

I refer you to my earlier answer to Alexei.

[AtW]

You don't know what it is to have to get visa into a country that pretty much does not want to issue it, if you knew that then you would not complain about having to use Dutch payroll or what not. As for Joe Black who had troubles in Belgium - what they do there is 100% violation of key EU laws and he should fight for his rights, nobody is going to do it for you, be grateful that you won't get assasinated for taking the Govt to court.

I support EU enlargement because it is the right thing to do - those countries are European countries and they were unfortunate enough to be sold out by old EU to Soviet Union for 50 years, it's time to pay them back by considering them equal. That said it was stupid for UK not to have any temporary limits on workforce because Germany and I think France had them.

No, I am not concerned about foreign competition because competition makes things better - harmonisation of taxation that will eventually happen, and same laws will even things out. Even outsourcing to India is becoming less of a threat due to wage increases there and quality issues that I think inherent to culture there (being able to take initiate and risk is not something that everyone has got).

[Viktor]

Totally agree with Alexei...What we see now as a mass-immigration is a short-term drawback of EU enlargement...The goal is to think in terms of ten years time, things will get better in Eastern Europe and Europe as a whole will benefit from law harmonisation and a common market.
Look at the sum of foreign investments and foreign capital in the City - this is why UK economy is in front of Germany and France. I always admired UK for this approach to business and the meritocracy culture...only to find out today that I need to appeal for a right to trade in UK, after I have been contracting for one year here! And this happens two months away from my "European Union" citizenship - surely I must be a treat to the UK medical/transportation/social system scheme

[mcquiggd]

Of course you agreee with Alexei - you both want to work in Britain to make money. You would not be here if that was not the case.

If it was your country suffering these effects, you would not agree.

Money will be moved from my country to yours, job opportunites moved from my country to yours, and yet this country will have suffered from the population burden that it cannot support, and the associated impact on infrastructure, healthcare, culture and schooling.

[AtW]

Don't equate yourself with the country - you may well be suffering from it, but consumers benefit from this competition. I run a business and I don't want to have an HTML coder demanding 60 grand just do front page work, IT folk now are much more sensible about renumeration than they were in 1999/2000, maybe this is the only reason why IT people will make it easier through the next crash.

Understand simple thing - IT foreign workers will either work here paying the same taxes as you thus increasing their baseline salary requirement and actually being on the same level situation with you (only you still hold advantage due to experience, native language etc), or they stay in their own countries where they will do outsourced work and thus require a lot less money.

This does not mean that I agree with allowing annual output of 500,000 Indian IT graduates to come work here, not at all, but it is in the interest of this country to take out the most enterpreneuring and smart IT people from other countries - this way what they will have left will not be good for serious jobs, so they will stay here, but of course you will need to share the pie with the newcomers.

[mcquiggd]

Don't equate yourself with the country - you may well be suffering from it, but consumers benefit from this competition. I run a business and I don't want to have an HTML coder demanding 60 grand just do front page work, IT folk now are much more sensible about renumeration than they were in 1999/2000, maybe this is the only reason why IT people will make it easier through the next crash.

Erm, how many people demand 60k for HTML? As for salaries during the 'boom years', surely that was just taking advantage of The Market, which is the fundamental basis of your arguements for economic migration...?

Consumers DO NOT benefit from this influx as their own salaries are gradually reduced, they pay increased taxation and face such measures as house repossesions to cope with the increased population, congestion charges, toll roads, their children are educated in classrooms alongside people who do not speak the same language, and companies simply pocket any ''cost saving" as profit as prices remain the same. House price inflation, as you have stated before, is supported by immigration, which has a negative impact on the indigenous populations ability to afford property.

The only time the consumer may indirectly benefit is if they pay cash in hand to, say, a Polish plumber. Ergo, the Polish plumber is not paying tax, therefore there is no benefit to anybody but the Polish plumber as the shortfall is made up by additional taxation.

Understand simple thing - IT foreign workers will either work here paying the same taxes as you thus increasing their baseline salary requirement and actually being on the same level situation with you (only you still hold advantage due to experience, native language etc), or they stay in their own countries where they will do outsourced work and thus require a lot less money.

Actually that was not the case, although it may have changed. Indian co-workers would regulalry rotate back home every 6 months for 2 weeks, which enabled them to pay tax in India rather than the UK, which due to their Governments support, was virtually zero. That is how they manage to undercut local workers. Add to that companies such as British Telecom bringing in Indians on work permits, paying them a lower salary, then topping it up with an 'expense allowance' for accomodation (as permies), which BT then claimed back as tax deductible, and there are yet more cases where foreign workers either do not pay direct taxation, or pay reduced direct taxation compared to a UK worker. The foreign worker is also unlikely to have a mortgage as they have no real intention of settling here.

This does not mean that I agree with allowing annual output of 500,000 Indian IT graduates to come work here, not at all, but it is in the interest of this country to take out the most enterpreneuring and smart IT people from other countries - this way what they will have left will not be good for serious jobs, so they will stay here, but of course you will need to share the pie with the newcomers.

Perhaps, but maybe 2000 - 3000 of the best and brightest would be sufficient, not the population of a major city every few years.

Would you support mass migration of Chechens into Russia to lower labour costs and 'stimulate the economy'...? How about 600,000 Polish...?

[AtW]

What would Viktor do if he had to come back to his country?

1) He will quit IT and do something else - hunting vampires or herding sheep (yeah right)

2) He will join outsourcing shop: with his proven experience, English language he will become senior dev who will liase with UK counterparts (you) and will be more than likely to succeed, he will then move over to become Project Manager, and thus effectively create 5-10 jobs in his country.

Whose job do you think would go in this case? Not just yours (as probably in case if Viktor was just here), but also 4-9 more. And that's really the arguement as far as I am concerned: by giving up small amount you actually gain by preventing yourself from a lot bigger losses.

And yet you keep bubbling about it like a captain of a sheep that gave leak who complains about about the cost of fixing the hole.

Chechens are Russian citizens, they have the same rights (in theory), and in practice a lot of them live outside, more so than before, but again stop bringing that war into talk - I have nothing to do with it and have been against it for a very long time.

[mcquiggd]

2) He will join outsourcing shop: with his proven experience, English language he will become senior dev who will liase with UK counterparts (you) and will be more than likely to succeed, he will then move over to become Project Manager, and thus effectively create 5-10 jobs in his country.

Or he might not be quite as good as he thinks he is, and would lose out to a local worker able to supply the same / better quality and be on site with native language skills. As you yourself have stated, outsourcing is becoming less of a threat due to salary rises in India etc, the poor quality of outsourced code, and the cultural barrier.

Whose job do you think would go in this case?

Yours.

And yet you keep bubbling about it like a captain of a sheep that gave leak who complains about about the cost of fixing the hole.

Please retract that remark Alexei - I have never captained a sheep in my life, nor is it my 'plan B' .

To paraphrase you, I am the paying passanger of the ship who is complaining to the captain that he ran straight ahead into an iceberg and created the hole that is sinking us.

Chechens are Russian citizens, they have the same rights (in theory), and in practice a lot of them live outside, more so than before, but again stop bringing that war into talk - I have nothing to do with it and have been against it for a very long time.

That doesn't answer the question fully - you admit that they have the same rights (in theory) - just as my earlier examples of me working in another EU country. There is 'theory' and 'reality'... I picked on Chechnya as they have a markedly different outlook to most Russians. The question was how would you feel about mass migration of such people into your home country? I also mentioned the Polish, although perhaps the same difference of views applies.

[AtW]

Chechens have Russian passports and as such have the same rights insofar as mobility and employments rights are concerned as Scottish people have in the UK: lets drop this subject since there it is not relevant.

What's relevant is what would happen if Viktor had to go back to his country. I am prepared to bet you another £100 that he won't quit IT. Do you want to take this bet (offer not open to anyone else)?