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The continuing nonsense of "Take Home Pay"

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    #61
    Originally posted by l35kee View Post
    Oh man, OK this is my last comment then!

    If the company didn't pay for it, I'd be paying for it out of my personal bank account that has already been taxed.

    My point has nothing to do with any claims.
    Ok, I'm going to respond to this, not because I think you are going to see it any differently than you do, but because other people are reading and I don't want you to confuse somebody else.

    The first kind of income protection insurance can be purchased for the individual by the company. It counts as a business expense. It is also a benefit in kind in this case, which means you pay income tax on the premiums, even though you haven't received it. In this case, our friend's argument that this is "income" is pretty reasonable, and HMRC would agree with him. The company is buying something for the person that he might well buy for himself out of after-tax funds, and it works out pretty close to the same thing as if he did.

    The second kind of income protection insurance can be purchased for the company by the company. If you become ill or whatever, it pays funds to the company. This is a legitimate business expense, like any other business insurance. It is insuring the business against loss of revenue. This is the kind of insurance that he is apparently discussing.

    He said above that if the company didn't pay for it, he would be paying for it out of his personal account that has already been taxed. I'm sorry, but that simply isn't true. If the insurance is not a benefit in kind, then it is the second kind of insurance, not the first kind, while the kind he would buy for himself is the first kind.

    In saying, "My point has nothing to do with claims" it shows that he doesn't actually understand the difference between the two kinds of insurance, and perhaps even a fundamental misunderstanding of the distinction between him and his limited company. One insurance insures his income, the other insures his company's income. I think, based on prior posts, that he DOES understand the difference between his income and his company's income, but for avoidance of any doubt, these are two different things. His company's income is taxed as profit at corporate tax rates but is not his until it is extracted as salary or dividend, at which point it becomes subject to income tax.

    Insuring the company's income gains him nothing unless/until he extracts that income and pays tax on it. The insurance premium is not income to him because it is not buying anything that gains him personally anything. It is buying something for the company. That something could benefit the company later, and if it does, it will eventually result in income for him which will be taxed. But that insurance is not buying him anything.

    It matters because income protection insurance is expensive and between that and the accountancy fees is probably more than 2/3 of his monthly expenses. It shoots significant holes in the argument that expenses are income when most of your expenses aren't.

    If his life insurance is a relevant life plan he has an argument there. It's effectively tax-free income, as is the mobile phone. These are things you would probably buy for yourself if they weren't provided, and are often not necessary for the business. There are a few things HMG allows employers to do for employees without grubbing around for every pence of tax they can seize.

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      #62
      Originally posted by WordIsBond View Post
      The first kind of income protection insurance can be purchased for the individual by the company.
      ...
      The second kind of income protection insurance can be purchased for the company by the company.
      ...
      If his life insurance is a relevant life plan he has an argument there. It's effectively tax-free income, as is the mobile phone. These are things you would probably buy for yourself if they weren't provided, and are often not necessary for the business. There are a few things HMG allows employers to do for employees without grubbing around for every pence of tax they can seize.
      The same good balanced thoughts there
      https://www.drewberryinsurance.co.uk...siness-expense
      Be careful, your benefit may be taxed
      If you wish to put your income protection premiums through as a trading expense it is usually wise to take out an executive income protection plan rather than a personal plan.
      Just may be "purchased ... by the company" is not such strict. It could be paid by a personal account and then reimbursed. Of course that adds some mess but still legitimate.

      For example, I pay Life Insurance and my business mobile broadband (exclusive use etc) from my personal account. Not on purpose but historically and that even could be useful as it is independent from Ltd Closure and could be used in a new Ltd. Given less hassle with P11D now that even could be a preferable option.

      P.S. Similar when Personal Credit card is used for some reasons when no Commercial credit card.
      I used Commercial credit card for years in old Ltd and now I do not want to use it ever any more as Commercial credit card bank transactions is a nightmare for bookkeeping.

      I think who paid initially does not matter. Just a nuance.
      Last edited by FK1; 29 March 2018, 13:43. Reason: PS

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        #63
        Originally posted by FK1 View Post
        I think who paid initially does not matter. Just a nuance.
        Agreed. The key point is whether the beneficiary is the company or the individual.

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          #64
          Originally posted by l35kee View Post
          Apart from the obvious (accountant and insurance, etc), it is income.
          It isn't. A few might be benefits in kind, but that is not income.

          Or do you perhaps work for the HMRC?

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