Subsistence - Exactly what can be claimed?

[Contreras]

Actually, on re-reading what you wrote, maybe you did understand me If you choose to apply the scale rates for a given claim, you're fixed by that system and hence by the cap for that claim (but you could claim less, in theory; why you'd want to, I don't know). The question is whether, for a separate claim (e.g. a week later), you could choose a different system, bound by different rules (e.g. receipted costs). I think, yes (indeed, if that's what you meant by "win-win", you understood me perfectly), but I'm not totally confident that I'm correct about that pick-and-mix approach being allowed (putting aside whether it is sensible).....

Yes that's what I understood you meant.

[Wanderer]

Trouble is you can't claim for the cost of breakfast unless your early start is exceptional i.e. if you normally start work at 9am but have to be in at 6am for an early meeting you would probably get away with it but if your normal working day is 6am to 3pm you won't. The same applies to the cost for dinner.

EIM05231 - Employment income: scale rate expenses: subsistence expenses: table of benchmark scale rates

True, the breakfast and dinner payments are only for exceptional circumstances so you can't claim them every day (though I know some employers may allow or even encourage this with no questions asked).

However, if your total commute door to door from your "normal workplace" (ie home) is 10 hours or more then you can claim the "two meal rate" which is £10 provided there was "some expense" incurred. If it's over 5 hours but less than 10 hours then you can claim £5.

That's £2,000 over the year which would net the worker between £400 and £800 depending on their tax rate. Worth having!

[LisaContractorUmbrella]

Two meal (10 hour) rate - The rate may be paid where the employee has been undertaking qualifying travel for a period of at least 10 hours and has incurred the cost of a meal or meals.

This isn't the same thing as leaving home at 8 and coming home at 6 after having done a half hour commute each way

[Wanderer]

Two meal (10 hour) rate - The rate may be paid where the employee has been undertaking qualifying travel for a period of at least 10 hours and has incurred the cost of a meal or meals.

This isn't the same thing as leaving home at 8 and coming home at 6 after having done a half hour commute each way

OK I understand that employers can't routinely pay the Breakfast or Late evening meal rate because they are only for "exceptional circumstances". But why do you think the example you give is not a qualifying period of travel for the 10 hour rate?

According to HMRC, the qualifying conditions for the payment of £5/£10 for a 5/10 hour trip are:

1. the travel must be in the performance of an employee’s duties or to a temporary place of work
2. the employee should be absent from his normal place of work or home for a continuous period in excess of five hours or ten hours
3. the employee should have incurred a cost on a meal (food and drink) after starting the journey

and they seem to be satisfied in this case.

[LisaContractorUmbrella]

OK I understand that employers can't routinely pay the Breakfast or Late evening meal rate because they are only for "exceptional circumstances". But why do you think the example you give is not a qualifying period of travel for the 10 hour rate?

According to HMRC, the qualifying conditions for the payment of £5/£10 for a 5/10 hour trip are:

1. the travel must be in the performance of an employee’s duties or to a temporary place of work
2. the employee should be absent from his normal place of work or home for a continuous period in excess of five hours or ten hours
3. the employee should have incurred a cost on a meal (food and drink) after starting the journey

and they seem to be satisfied in this case.

Because it IMHO doesn't satisfy the reasonableness test - if you leave the house at 8am are you likely to buy your breakfast on the way to work or are you likely to spend £10 on lunch everyday? And if you arrive back home at 6pm are you likely to buy something to eat on the way home?

[Wanderer]

Because it IMHO doesn't satisfy the reasonableness test

I do agree that the whole travel and subsistence allowance rules don't sound at all reasonable or logical but there is no "reasonableness test", only the three conditions that I quoted from HMRC's website.

if you leave the house at 8am are you likely to buy your breakfast on the way to work or are you likely to spend £10 on lunch everyday? And if you arrive back home at 6pm are you likely to buy something to eat on the way home?

The only requirement is that the employee incurs a cost at some time during the trip. It doesn't matter which meal the cost is incurred for, nor does it matter how much the cost was.

[LisaContractorUmbrella]

I do agree that the whole travel and subsistence allowance rules don't sound at all reasonable or logical but there is no "reasonableness test", only the three conditions that I quoted from HMRC's website.



The only requirement is that the employee incurs a cost at some time during the trip. It doesn't matter which meal the cost is incurred for, nor does it matter how much the cost was.

Agree with what you are saying and, let's face it, HMRC rules are never what you would call clear. I just find that, for an umbrella company at least, scale rates are very difficult to police and are often granted when they shouldn't be - just MHO but I feel far more comfortable with expense claims for costs incurred rather than fixed amounts requiring no receipts

[Newbie Simon]

The benchmark scale rates that apply from 6 April 2009 are as follows:

Description

Amount (up to)


Breakfast rate £5
One meal (5 hour) rate £5
Two meal (10 hour) rate £10
Late evening meal rate £15

Does the one meal rate £5 mean 5 hour travel time or 5 hours worked?

[JB3000]

Does the one meal rate £5 mean 5 hour travel time or 5 hours worked?

"the employee should be absent from his normal place of work or home for a continuous period in excess of five hours or ten hours"

EIM05231 - Employment income: scale rate expenses: subsistence expenses: table of benchmark scale rates

[Contreras]

The benchmark scale rates that apply from 6 April 2009 are as follows:

...

You may only apply those benchmark rates if you have dispensation from HMRC to do so.

You can however claim actual costs incurred, with receipts, as business travel expenses. 24-month rule applies.

There are benchmark rates for travel outside of the UK which do not require dispensation.

There's also a statutory rate for 'incidentals', no receipts required, if you have an overnight stay.