No To Retro Tax – Campaign Against Section 58 Finance Act 2008

[DonkeyRhubarb]

Yes sorry, I meant 90 days - so send response day 87 special Delivery.

After you have sent your response (made representations), HMRC consider this and then issue a decision either confirming that the APN stands or withdrawing it.

If HMRC say the APN stands then you have 30 days to pay, after which there are penalties. At this stage there is no right to appeal.

[phileds]

So what are the options?

Hypothetical scenario

Let's say I get an APN for £100k. I am maxed out on my current income (no money at all to spare, all income is taken up by bills, mortgage, school fees, pension. Let's say for the sake of argument that I have £10k in savings as the only liquid cash I have access to).

What, if anything, can HMRC do to enforce payment of the APN?

Could they for example force one to redirect part of one's income to them (e.g. "stop paying your pension and pay the money to HMRC")?

Can they take my savings?

Would appreciate an answer from someone with a legal and/or accounting background, or who has been through the process.

[warlord]

After you have sent your response (made representations), HMRC consider this and then issue a decision either confirming that the APN stands or withdrawing it.

If HMRC say the APN stands then you have 30 days to pay, after which there are penalties. At this stage there is no right to appeal.

That's what the letter says.
But excluding penalties/interest my liability is aprox 55k. I do not have any cash and have 75k of other unstructured debt (credit cards, loans, car loans etc), no ccj's or bad credit, plus a 440k mortgage.
So unless Hmrc can do the 55k over say 10 years, its bankruptcy for me......thoughts?

[warlord]

Hypothetical scenario

Let's say I get an APN for £100k. I am maxed out on my current income (no money at all to spare, all income is taken up by bills, mortgage, school fees, pension. Let's say for the sake of argument that I have £10k in savings as the only liquid cash I have access to).

What, if anything, can HMRC do to enforce payment of the APN?

Could they for example force one to redirect part of one's income to them (e.g. "stop paying your pension and pay the money to HMRC")?

Can they take my savings?

Would appreciate an answer from someone with a legal and/or accounting background, or who has been through the process.

I am no expert, but as I have read the balifs will take the 10k, then any other assets YOU HAVE, then bankrupt you.....nightmare. Looks you are in my boat too? (assets in joint name MAYBE safe)

[JusticeJames]

I am no expert, but as I have read the balifs will take the 10k, then any other assets YOU HAVE, then bankrupt you.....nightmare. Looks you are in my boat too? (assets in joint name MAYBE safe)

This is where I have to strongly disagree. And all your doing is giving people added stress. That EVERYTHING will be lost. The mental energy used overly worrying could be directed to actually joining the fight.. kick up some stink... go viral... write to your local mp, explaning your worries over everything, go to your doctor explain your mental health is being affected.. they will record this.. all things you can use IF you ever need to go infront of a judge. Whats the best way to handle a bully asking for your dinner money? pay them?

If you havent got loads of liquid cash in your personal bank account that is immediatly accessable, what are they (HRMC/Judge) going to do?? get blood out of a stone? take the clothes off your back? Put you on the streets? It just doesnt happen that way. Plus you have 50,000 other people in similar situations. Your not the only one. To take one person all the way through the judcial process take years! its a nightmare to deal with one person, let alone 50,000....

Direct me to any legitamate case where someone has gone to court over any tax dispute and the judge has said "yeah, your have to go bankrupt, go sell your home and they are now living on the streets with nothing.

Ask any reputable laywer. They CANNOT legally make you a) take out further borrowing in order to repay an HMRC penalty. 2) Make you sell your home 3) Force you to bankruptcy.

[JusticeJames]

That's what the letter says.
But excluding penalties/interest my liability is aprox 55k. I do not have any cash and have 75k of other unstructured debt (credit cards, loans, car loans etc), no ccj's or bad credit, plus a 440k mortgage.
So unless Hmrc can do the 55k over say 10 years, its bankruptcy for me......thoughts?

In that tiny percanage scenario of ever happening, within 10 years the whole tax system could and probably will change again... plus if the scheme is proven to be valid, THEY have to give it all back to you plus interest.

Yes I can pay back the apn after all my living costs £100 a month, over 30 years. The alternative mr Judge bankrupt me - They wont and cant bankrupt you. Judge looks over your expenses, in goings and outgoings... yes ok that is fair. Case closed. Next 49,000 people to see.

[centurian]

Hypothetical scenario

Sorry, I don't think it's that hypothetical at all.

One would hope that HMRC take a light touch to enforcing APNs.

But the problem is there are different departments at HMRC. One team determines whether you have a debt, then pass it on to another team that enforces/collects the debt.

Whether you agree with it or not, an APN is considered an "enforceable debt"

The enforcement/collections do not give a flying #@&% as to the circumstances how the "debt" occurred - and will likely use every tool at their disposal, which, unfortunately includes bankruptcy as a last resort

PS. You mentioned pension contributions - your pension funds are protected from bankruptcy - however you must show you are not making pension contributions to shield money from creditors.

HMRC may go back until the point you were first made aware of this (which they may argue is 2008) and query any increase in contributions - and can ask a bankruptcy court to seize payments you have already made for the past 7 years. If you have made any increases, speak to an expert

[BrilloPad]

Sorry to hear about the above. However, please note that you will NOT have to go bankrupt nor lose a place of residence. If paying the full amount (any amount) would put you in "financial extremity". This would include bankruptcy or meaning you have to sell your home (if you own one). This is 100%. Feel free to check with any reputable laywer. No doubt its extememly stressful and concerning to receive an APN. But the bottom line is you wont be FORCED to sell your residential property, nor FORCED into bankcruptcy. HRMC simply cannot do that Nor will any judge instruct that you do.

I hope you are right on that. There is the odd horror story out there.

[BrilloPad]

Judge McCreath said he assessed the seriousness of the offences by current guidelines, but he was limited to the maximum sentences that were available at the time the offences were committed, when "the sentencing climate was less severe".

"The offences for which I must pass sentence today took place many years ago at a time when in particular, in respect of one of them, the maximum sentence was considerably lower than that which is now available," he said.

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That's right folks, even Gary Glitter doesn't get the retrospective law change treatment.

Top post! I have posted thatr in general :-

http://forums.contractoruk.com/gener...ospection.html

[Iliketax]

I hope you are right on that. There is the odd horror story out there.

I don't know whether he is right or wrong. JusticeJames may be an expert on this sort of thing but I am not. I would be scared sh!tless if I got to the stage where HMRC were demanding money that I could not afford to pay.

TaxAid is a charity who knows what happens when HMRC ask people to pay money that they cannot afford. Their website gives an explanation of the tax debt process and their experience of dealing with HMRC. It isn't designed to cover APNs though: Tax debts under Self Assessment « TaxAid

You need time to pay
If you owe tax which you cannot pay immediately, then you may want to seek some agreement with [HMRC's Debt Management and Banking] to pay your tax by instalments. You will need to complete all outstanding tax returns and explain how you will meet on-going tax bills. The maximum time you will normally be allowed is 12 months, though a shorter timescale is more usual. Interest will still be due on the debt.

...

You may be at risk of enforcement action
If you cannot reach an agreement with DMB, you face the risk of enforcement action. It is important to understand what each procedure involves, and the defences that could help you.

The following pages then talk about:

- Debt Collection Agencies (inc contact by letter and phone)
- Enforcement Action:

In such circumstances, DMB will consider taking enforcement action, which will be one of the following measures:
- Taking control of goods for sale at public auction (sometimes known as distraint)
- Summary Proceedings in the Magistrates’ Court (this is very rare in England)
- County Court proceedings (or Sheriff Court in Scotland)
- Bankruptcy

There is no set order of events with tax debt: HMRC will take whatever action it considers to be most effective in the individual case. But in many cases, HMRC will first consider recovering the debt through PAYE or taking control of goods, before moving on to Court Action. (In Scotland, where HMRC does not have its own power to seize goods, Court action is likely to be the first stage).
If the debt is large, DMB might omit the Court stage and transfer the file straight to HMRC’s Enforcement & Insolvency Service for consideration of bankruptcy proceedings (see next section). In other cases DMB will probably seek a court judgment (CCJ) in the County Court, which orders you to pay the amount due.

If you fail to make any payment due under a court order, DMB will usually pass your file to the Enforcement & Insolvency Service office to consider proceedings for bankruptcy. Unlike other creditors they rarely opt to enforce through the County Court instead.

Being made bankrupt by HMRC is broadly similar to being made bankrupt by a commercial creditor, but you will need to be aware of the following additional factors.
If you owe HM Revenue and Customs more than £2,000, and:
- Have been unable to reach an agreement with HMRC for time to pay
- HMRC has not been able to recover the money by other means, such as taking control of goods, or by a Court Judgment
then your file may be passed to the HMRC Enforcement and Insolvency Office (EIO) for bankruptcy action.

....

It is important to understand that the Enforcement Office does not behave like most commercial creditors. In particular, it often petitions for bankruptcy even where it is clear that this will not benefit HMRC because the taxpayer has no assets. Indeed, sometimes the bankruptcy costs the government money, because the bankrupt loses their home and/or job and is forced to rely upon social housing and/or welfare benefits.