No To Retro Tax – Campaign Against Section 58 Finance Act 2008

[BrilloPad]

The Supreme Court refused leave to appeal the Judicial Review of the retrospective legislation. But this is a completely separate legal process than the tax tribunals (FTT).

Both Huitson and Shiner have appealed their closure notices to the FTT, and it is these pending tribunal cases which are deferring collection. That's why HMRC are not banging on our doors demanding payment.

We are at FTT level 1? How many levels are there? When FTT is over any idea if HMRC will collect or will they wait for our legal case alledging HMRC lied to parliament? Or await our appeal to Europe?

If you have any guesstimates as to timescales that would be much appreciated.

Thanks
BP

[DonkeyRhubarb]

We are at FTT level 1? How many levels are there? When FTT is over any idea if HMRC will collect or will they wait for our legal case alledging HMRC lied to parliament? Or await our appeal to Europe?

If you have any guesstimates as to timescales that would be much appreciated.

Thanks
BP

There is First-tier tribunal and Upper tribunal. Beyond there I think you have to appeal to the Court of Appeal and then the Supreme Court. In other words

FTT -> UT -> CofA -> SC

However, at any stage after the FTT permission to appeal may be refused.

If we lose at the FTT then HMRC could enforce collection, even if we appeal. However, having waited this long they may decide to just let the tax appeals process run its course.

It's possible they may wait for the outcome of the adjudicator/ombudsman.

If Montpelier's application to Europe is accepted then they may wait until the case has been heard but that's even more uncertain.

It's almost impossible to put a timescale on it because there are so many variables but I think it's highly unlikely HMRC would be in a position to collect this year. 2015 is probably the earliest.

[travellingknob]

Newsletter

Excellent positive update again today NTRT.

FTT questions: If there are several other test cases to be taken to FTT in addition to Huitson & Shiner, do they all get heard at once ? Thus, does a one day hearing turn into several days and/or do all the case arguements get heard concurrently, sequentially or as completely different cases ? Would then the Huitson FTT judgement include the judgement of the other test cases or are there several separate judgements to be expected ? I assume something that might be a winning arguement in one case might not apply to another individual. Are the full judgements released to the public domain ?

[BrilloPad]

There is First-tier tribunal and Upper tribunal. Beyond there I think you have to appeal to the Court of Appeal and then the Supreme Court. In other words

FTT -> UT -> CofA -> SC

However, at any stage after the FTT permission to appeal may be refused.

If we lose at the FTT then HMRC could enforce collection, even if we appeal. However, having waited this long they may decide to just let the tax appeals process run its course.

It's possible they may wait for the outcome of the adjudicator/ombudsman.

If Montpelier's application to Europe is accepted then they may wait until the case has been heard but that's even more uncertain.

It's almost impossible to put a timescale on it because there are so many variables but I think it's highly unlikely HMRC would be in a position to collect this year. 2015 is probably the earliest.

Superb reply Sir - much appreciated.

[DonkeyRhubarb]

Excellent positive update again today NTRT.

FTT questions: If there are several other test cases to be taken to FTT in addition to Huitson & Shiner, do they all get heard at once ? Thus, does a one day hearing turn into several days and/or do all the case arguements get heard concurrently, sequentially or as completely different cases ? Would then the Huitson FTT judgement include the judgement of the other test cases or are there several separate judgements to be expected ? I assume something that might be a winning arguement in one case might not apply to another individual. Are the full judgements released to the public domain ?

It is unclear at the moment whether there will be one combined hearing or multiple hearings. However, in terms of efficiency, the court may want the cases to be heard together, as the CofA did with Huitson & Shiner.

The judgment will be released in the public domain. Here is an example of a recent FTT decision, with a PDF of the judgment.

The Finance & Tax Tribunal

[BrilloPad]

One thing about the newsletter. Discussions with HMRC. No mention of what happens to those of us who will go bankrupt.

On one level it does not matter - I can't pay anyway. But when I go bankrupt I will lose my job. The later the better.

[travellingknob]

That's not quite how I read it Brillo.

Looks like Mr.G caused AJ to run up costs of c.250k and Morris(?) around 300k then he folded his hand and walked away.

Meanwhile he blames Hector's illegal raid on the MP offices for causing the bankruptcy of that business so he can't pay any costs himself.


Reading the judgement isn't easy so if I have it wrong can someone correct my summary?
Thanks

Its not an award for costs at all. Its an arguement about whether MP should put up security of £700K should Mr G eventually loose the case and be ordered to pay AJones/Morris's costs. The actual case is ongoing but this judgement is really just saying that no further litigation is possible unless Mr G stumps up the security. I believe Mr G won round one but amount of damages was never decided and AJs appeal still has to be heard. It all stalled because MP went into liquidation. Its only of passing interest to us anyway. I did notice Mr G is supposedly worth £20M though.

[BrilloPad]

Its not an award for costs at all. Its an arguement about whether MP should put up security of £700K should Mr G eventually loose the case and be ordered to pay AJones/Morris's costs. The actual case is ongoing but this judgement is really just saying that no further litigation is possible unless Mr G stumps up the security. I believe Mr G won round one but amount of damages was never decided and AJs appeal still has to be heard. It all stalled because MP went into liquidation. Its only of passing interest to us anyway. I did notice Mr G is supposedly worth £20M though.

Only £20m! His house in Barbados is worth that. Add in his Barbados bank accounts and you are talking about serious dosh.

But UK assets? I think there might be a paperclip somewhere. Maybe a bic.

[DonkeyRhubarb]

One thing about the newsletter. Discussions with HMRC. No mention of what happens to those of us who will go bankrupt.

On one level it does not matter - I can't pay anyway. But when I go bankrupt I will lose my job. The later the better.

If it's any comfort, HMRC should not bankrupt anyone until the appeals process has run its course. Even if we were to lose at the FTT, there is likely to be an appeal to the UT which would further delay matters.

[ARCHIVED CONTENT] HM Revenue & Customs: Enforcement of judgements in litigation

"HMRC will not enforce payment in cases where to do so would be likely to drive the taxpayer into liquidation or bankruptcy.

If you appeal against a decision of the tribunal but you think you will suffer hardship if you have to pay before the higher tribunal or court has decided your appeal, you should apply to HMRC to have collection of the tax held over, even where you made a hardship application before the previous tribunal."

[BrilloPad]

If it's any comfort, HMRC should not bankrupt anyone until the appeals process has run its course. Even if we were to lose at the FTT, there is likely to be an appeal to the UT which would further delay matters.

[ARCHIVED CONTENT] HM Revenue & Customs: Enforcement of judgements in litigation

"HMRC will not enforce payment in cases where to do so would be likely to drive the taxpayer into liquidation or bankruptcy.

If you appeal against a decision of the tribunal but you think you will suffer hardship if you have to pay before the higher tribunal or court has decided your appeal, you should apply to HMRC to have collection of the tax held over, even where you made a hardship application before the previous tribunal."

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In my case bankruptcy is totally certain. As is my next nervous breakdown. Nice to have some good news - cheers.