BN66 - Round 2 (Court of Appeal)

[moira under the stairs]

Quantative Easing

Passed on for interesting reading.....

It's a slow day in a little Scottish town. The sun is beating down and the streets are deserted. Times are tough, everybody is in debt, and everybody lives on credit. On this particular day a rich tourist from down south is driving through town. He stops at the motel and lays a £50 note on the desk saying he wants to inspect the rooms upstairs in order to pick one to spend the night.

As soon as the man walks upstairs, the owner grabs the note and runs next door to pay his debt to the butcher.

The butcher takes the £50 and runs down the street to repay his debt to the pig farmer.

The pig farmer takes the £50 and heads off to pay his bill at the supplier of feed and fuel.

The guy at the Farmer's Co-op takes the £50 and runs to pay his debt to the local prostitute, who has also been facing hard times and has had to offer her "services" on credit.

The hooker rushes to the hotel and pays off her room bill with the hotel owner.

The hotel proprietor then places the £50 back on the counter so the rich traveller will not suspect anything.

At that moment the traveller comes down the stairs, picks up the £50 note, states that the rooms are not satisfactory, pockets the money, and leaves town.

No one produced anything. No one earned anything.

However, the whole town is now out of debt and now looks to the future with a lot more optimism.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is how the British Government is conducting business today…………….

[DonkeyRhubarb]

Anyone looking for web design work?

MP are looking for one or two people to do some web design for one of their UK tax consultants (based near Liverpool).

They need 2 sites setting up fairly quickly.

PM or email me for contact details.

[email protected]

[Toocan]

HMRC publish a podcast which is available through iTunes and no doubt other platforms. Look for “HMRC Podcasts – Revenue & Customs”.

On 24th August 2007 a podcast entitled “Questions To HMRC Director General, Dave Hartnett” – it’s 8 mins long.

Towards the end of the podcast Dave is asked what constitutes “tax avoidance” and he replies that there elements must be present. He then goes onto state that where secrecy isn’t present then he would describe that as “tax planning”.

In other words, HMRC acknowledge that the scheme is properly described as “tax planning” rather than “tax avoidance”.

But that’s not what they have been saying…

[BolshieBastard]

HMRC publish a podcast which is available through iTunes and no doubt other platforms. Look for “HMRC Podcasts – Revenue & Customs”.

On 24th August 2007 a podcast entitled “Questions To HMRC Director General, Dave Hartnett” – it’s 8 mins long.

Towards the end of the podcast Dave is asked what constitutes “tax avoidance” and he replies that there elements must be present. He then goes onto state that where secrecy isn’t present then he would describe that as “tax planning”.

In other words, HMRC acknowledge that the scheme is properly described as “tax planning” rather than “tax avoidance”.

But that’s not what they have been saying…

I wonder if the secrecy Dave refers to there extends to the amount of salary we pay him, how much we contribute to his pension and how much he contributes, what performance bonus he has received for the last 5 years, what BIK's he gets in his job etc, etc.

But I guess that kind of transparency is 'different,' eh?

[Tax_shouldnt_be_taxing]

Towards the end of the podcast Dave is asked what constitutes “tax avoidance” and he replies that there elements must be present. He then goes onto state that where secrecy isn’t present then he would describe that as “tax planning”.

In other words, HMRC acknowledge that the scheme is properly described as “tax planning” rather than “tax avoidance”.

But that’s not what they have been saying…

Toocan,

This is interesting. As I posted a while back the then Secretary-General of the OECD Donald Johnston, that Parker referred to at the JR also stated:

"Tax evasion is easy: it involves breaking the law. By tax avoidance OECD means unacceptable avoidance ... This can be contrasted with acceptable tax planning. What is critical is transparency."

So we have the OECD and Hartnett both referring to the same agreed position that confirms the scheme is indeed tax planning.

Surely, this fact substantiated by the OECD and Hartnett gives rise to a question that needs to be raised whether in Court or direct to HMRC via a complaint of this case since:

MontP claimed it was legitimate tax planning
OECD accept transparency as tax planning
Hartnett accepts lack of secrecy is tax planning

I don't think this leaves much to "clarify".

[Incognito]

Passed on for interesting reading.....

It's a slow day in a little Scottish town. The sun is beating down and the streets are deserted. Times are tough, everybody is in debt, and everybody lives on credit. On this particular day a rich tourist from down south is driving through town. He stops at the motel and lays a £50 note on the desk saying he wants to inspect the rooms upstairs in order to pick one to spend the night.

As soon as the man walks upstairs, the owner grabs the note and runs next door to pay his debt to the butcher.

The butcher takes the £50 and runs down the street to repay his debt to the pig farmer.

The pig farmer takes the £50 and heads off to pay his bill at the supplier of feed and fuel.

The guy at the Farmer's Co-op takes the £50 and runs to pay his debt to the local prostitute, who has also been facing hard times and has had to offer her "services" on credit.

The hooker rushes to the hotel and pays off her room bill with the hotel owner.

The hotel proprietor then places the £50 back on the counter so the rich traveller will not suspect anything.

At that moment the traveller comes down the stairs, picks up the £50 note, states that the rooms are not satisfactory, pockets the money, and leaves town.

No one produced anything. No one earned anything.

However, the whole town is now out of debt and now looks to the future with a lot more optimism.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is how the British Government is conducting business today…………….

What a crock of tulip. The hotel owner is out of pocket by £50.

[silver_lining]

Toocan,

This is interesting. As I posted a while back the then Secretary-General of ......to "clarify".

TSBT,

To my mind this is more than interesting. I firmly believe these points needs to be raised in court as its serves to undermine the social and public policy points that form part of HMRCs arguments, which lets not forget were supported in Parkers judgement.

Make no mistake, the social/ public argument will continue to form one of, if not the main argument to swing HMRCs case..... We must be ready to counter that and counter it strongly.

Presenting these two points, chips away at the 'aggressive tax avoidance' label attached by Parker... which Elvin made no effort to at least water down... if he was not aware of OCED/ Hartnett's comments - use them next time ! it also inadvertently highlights yet again, that the planning was indeed transparent planning for years and years inline with Hartnett's position and OCED.... and most importantly the law as everyone understands it

SL

[Tax_shouldnt_be_taxing]

TSBT,

To my mind this is more than interesting. I firmly believe these points needs to be raised in court as its serves to undermine the social and public policy points that form part of HMRCs arguments, which lets not forget were supported in Parkers judgement.

Make no mistake, the social/ public argument will continue to form one of, if not the main argument to swing HMRCs case..... We must be ready to counter that and counter it strongly.

Presenting these two points, chips away at the 'aggressive tax avoidance' label attached by Parker... which Elvin made no effort to at least water down... if he was not aware of OCED/ Hartnett's comments - use them next time ! it also inadvertently highlights yet again, that the planning was indeed transparent planning for years and years inline with Hartnett's position and OCED.... and most importantly the law as everyone understands it

SL

SL, I'm sometimes given to understatement. The fact remains that both the S-G of the OECD and Hartnett agree that transparency is the key evaluator to define "tax planning". Actually, you can Google the hell out of such a position and it appears everyone agrees that whilst the authorities try to muddy the waters between evasion and avoidance, all agree that transparency is the key element that distinguishes "tax planning" from both. This needs to be taken up at the highest level to counter the "fair share" and "social policy" diatribe. Indeed it was this transparency that made me comfortable with the scheme in the first place.

So, HMRC et al:

Transparency = Tax Planning

[poppy01]

What a crock of tulip. The hotel owner is out of pocket by £50.

no he isnt , he owed 50 and was owed 50. he broke even. it could also have been achieved by everyone writing off there debt

[RichardCranium]

no he isnt , he owed 50 and was owed 50. he broke even. it could also have been achieved by everyone writing off there debt

£50 was put on the counter and was the property of the tourist.

At the end, the hotel proprietor took £50 takings from the till and put it in his pocket. He did so without paying any tax on it.

He then put it on the counter. The tourist walked off with the £50.

The hotel proprietor lost £50. Plus he has tax to pay on his £50 drawings. He is worse than £50 off.

Also, all the others in the chain have tax to pay on their £50 transactions too, which they may now do since they feel less in debt than they did.

Net result, the town is out of debt to each other but the Treasury is something like 6 x 20% to 40% of £50 = £90 better off in tax receipts. If they are all small business using the "pay your VAT when you are paid" scheme then they have about £52.50 VAT to pay between them, too.