Confused!

[beerbarrel]

Jools,

Filetravel is an MSC, leave them immediately.

If you are genuinely prepared to run your own company find a small local firm of accountants to help you get started.

If you don't really want to run your own company join a brolly.

[THEPUMA]

Giant are simply trying to bully everyone into joining their umbrella company for obvious reasons.

I think there are various categories of accountancy providers to the PSC(sorry Malvolio) market as follows:-

Ex-major MSC providers - eg Giant, Liberty Bishop, 1st Contact - Some of these will withdraw (as Giant and LB have done) and others will radically change their product. They will be first on the HMRC hit-list.

Major PSC providers - JSA, SJD, NW etc - They will be second in the firing line. I think those that are not regulated by the ICAEW will be most at risk. I believe that JSA are regulated by the ICAEW but the other 2 are not.

The rest - should be OK.

I wouldn't be surprised if we see the industry move towards menus of fees (ie £500 for your accounts, £150 for your tax return etc) before August when our necks go on the block.

Interesting but uncertain times.

[beerbarrel]

Major PSC providers - JSA, SJD, NW etc - They will be second in the firing line. I think those that are not regulated by the ICAEW will be most at risk. I believe that JSA are regulated by the ICAEW but the other 2 are not.

Interesting, didn't realise SJD weren't ICAEW regulated.

They give the impression that they are the font of all knowledge on this site, how many of their accountants are PCG (QA) accredited, bet its only 1!!!!

[philip@wellwoodhoyle]

ICAEW isn't the only reputable accountancy body. There are other bodies who form part of the CCAB (consultative committee of accounting bodies) of EQUAL standing, who are equally capable of preparing accounts and tax returns, giving advice, undertaking statutory audits, etc. In particular, whilst some ICAEW members have a snobbish attitude towards Chartered Certified Accountants (ACCA), ACCA firms have EQUAL professional standing in law. There are also other "chartered" bodies, such as the Chartered Management Accountants and Chartered Institute of Taxation which are likewise regarded as equal to ICAEW in their chosen specialisms. Then, there are the mid-tier professional bodies such as Association of Accounting Technicians and Association of Tax Technicians, again widely respected qualifications. Banks and building societies routinely accept accounts prepared by members of these bodies without question.

There is absolutely nothing to suggest that HMRC will cherry pick ICAEW members and "banish" all others. Somewhere along the line, someone has been sloppy and mentioned ICAEW in some official report or other, presumably thinking, wrongly, that they were the only "proper" accountancy body. There is nothing official from HMRC at all, in fact, HMRC have never even distinguished between "qualified" and "unqualified", yet alone between qualified and ICAEW members. The idea that only ICAEW members will be "proper" accountants according to HMRC won't happen and is a red herring. What "may" happen is that HMRC may require "proper" accountants to have a professional qualification, professional indemnity insurance, undertake ongoing training, be regulated by a professional body, etc., which to be honest would be a damn good idea to get rid of the real dross - those who have neither proper experience nor qualifications, nor are regulated or supervised in any way.

[THEPUMA]

Beerbarrel

The truth is I'm not 100% sure about SJD. The website implies they are and the quote below implies they are. But when I tried to check on the ICAEW website, I couldn't find them. I have asked Simon a couple of times to clarify but he has thus far declined to comment.

Well, we do of course qualify, but my point would be that you canot rely on the qualification alone.

WHA, HMRC's guidance note does specifically mention professionally qualified accountants. I accept that this may or may not include those qualified with organisations other than the ICAEW.

[Nixon Williams]

and when you say a good accountant, it seems pretty clear that SJD, NW and 1st Accountants all fall under the definition of "promoting and facilitating" and should be avoided?

I picked this up from HMRC " The Treasury explained that accountants are exempt if they are merely providing accountancy services. But if an accountancy firm is in the businesses of promoting 'MSCs' it moves out of the 'merely providing accountancy services and comes into a different category' where the exemption does not apply. So, in certain circumstances and depending on the nature and activities of the accountancy firm, merely being an accountant does not bring automatic exemption."

To quote the Finance Bill:

61B Meaning of “managed service company”

1(d) a person who carries on a business of promoting or
facilitating the use of companies to provide the services of
individuals (“an MSC provider”) is involved with the
company.

However:

(3) A person does not fall within subsection (1)(d) merely by virtue of
providing legal or accountancy services in a professional capacity.

So ourselves, SJD, Upton etc cannot be clased as a MSC provider.

Even if the above exemption did not apply it would have to be shown that we are involved with the company, so to quote the Bill again:

(2) An MSC provider is “involved with the company” if the MSC
provider or an associate of the MSC provider—

(a) benefits financially on an ongoing basis from the provision of
the services of the individual,
We provide our services on a fixed fee basis which is not dependant upon the company turnover

(b) influences or controls the provision of those services,
We do not have any say at all in the provision of services

(c) influences or controls the way in which payments to the
individual (or associates of the individual) are made, We provide advice as accountants but the client is free to ignore this (and often does!)

(d) influences or controls the company’s finances or any of its
activities, or
Again we offer advice but we have no control over the bank account or how and when payments are made.

(e) gives or promotes an undertaking to make good any tax loss.
Cannot see how this would apply to what we do

Alan

[Nixon Williams]

Giant are simply trying to bully everyone into joining their umbrella company for obvious reasons.

Major PSC providers - JSA, SJD, NW etc - They will be second in the firing line. I think those that are not regulated by the ICAEW will be most at risk. I believe that JSA are regulated by the ICAEW but the other 2 are not.

What a load of nonsense!

I agree with WHA, there are many different types of accountants and to say only ICAEW members will be OK is clearly inaccurate.

Giant may be trying to bully people but you are trying to scare people for your own purposes.

Not a very professional representation of ICAEW!

Alan

[jools]

What is an MSC and why is that bad for me?

[simondolan]

Giant are simply trying to bully everyone into joining their umbrella company for obvious reasons.

I think there are various categories of accountancy providers to the PSC(sorry Malvolio) market as follows:-

Ex-major MSC providers - eg Giant, Liberty Bishop, 1st Contact - Some of these will withdraw (as Giant and LB have done) and others will radically change their product. They will be first on the HMRC hit-list.

Major PSC providers - JSA, SJD, NW etc - They will be second in the firing line. I think those that are not regulated by the ICAEW will be most at risk. I believe that JSA are regulated by the ICAEW but the other 2 are not.

The rest - should be OK.

I wouldn't be surprised if we see the industry move towards menus of fees (ie £500 for your accounts, £150 for your tax return etc) before August when our necks go on the block.

Interesting but uncertain times.

You really are talking out of it now Joel.

For reference SJD are regulated by the Chartered Institute of Taxation. The CIOT is widely acknowledged to be the most difficult regulatory body to be a member of. Would you argue with that?

Oh, and amongst our staff at last count we had over 30 qualified staff, including ACA, ACCA, FCCA, CA, ATII, ACMA.

Now, Joel claims to represent Hillier Hopkins - a long established Accountancy firm. In actual fact he works for HH Contractor Services Ltd - a Company very recently set up specifically to work for contractors (Or PSC's as he would call them).

[simondolan]

Interesting, didn't realise SJD weren't ICAEW regulated.

They give the impression that they are the font of all knowledge on this site, how many of their accountants are PCG (QA) accredited, bet its only 1!!!!

Check with the PCG Joel, you'll find all our offices are accredited by the PCG.

Unlike your Company.