Non-UK based resident

[Bradley]

Re:VAT

The Babel Fish translation of what you posted says

2.2.4. Provisions of services in intellectual matter The provisions of services, such as transfers and concessions of rights of authors, patents, excise taxes, services of the advisers, engineers, offices d'études, accountancy, hiring of movable property body others that means of transport, provided by a person receiving benefits established out of France are famous to be in France when the taker is fixed with the VAT in France and y has the seat of its economic activity. On this assumption, the VAT is due by the taker.

That's fine except we're talking about a foreign resident individual/corporation coming to work in the UK!

The French have probably just done their usual and ignored the EC rules. In any event if it came to an argument between the French and UK regimes, the UK regime would prevail.

[expat]

Re: Re:VAT

You're struggling, Bradley.

The Babel Fish translation of what you posted says

You don't need a translation of what I quoted by way of illustration. What I myself wrote is simple:

But that's exactly the point, the services are provided in one country by a supplier based in another. Therefore it is an intracommunity billing and VAT is due from the customer and not from the supplier.

That's fine except we're talking about a foreign resident individual/corporation coming to work in the UK!

As you said yourself,

Before you say it, English VAT rules are based on European VAT rules so what Schedule 5 says holds good for the whole of the EU

The French have probably just done their usual and ignored the EC rules. In any event if it came to an argument between the French and UK regimes, the UK regime would prevail.

Cheap shots. They have done the same as everyobody else.

16.5 The VAT Act 1994 – Schedule 5

Services supplied where received.

Quite so: supplied in the UK by a French supplier (in our example). The place of supply determines which country's VAT should be paid, not who should pay it. That is determined by whether or not the supplier is based in the country whose VAT is to be paid. Simple, logical, and consistent across the EU in anybody's language. Ask the tax authorities themselves; I did, in both countries.

[antell]

Re: tax and NIC

. What do you really mean to ask, when you mention IR35? If you go through an umbrella company, IR35 is irrelevant. If you use your own company, then you are or are not caught depending on your relation with the client. Being non-resident has nothing to do with it, either way.

Without going into the details of the case in point (about which the questionner should seek legal advice) it is not quite true to say that IR35 all depends on the relationship with the client and that "being non-resident has nothing to do with it".
Even if the relationship with the client would otherwise cause IR35 to apply, the resident and/or "temporary posting" status of the employee can prevent IR35 applying in certain circumstances. The rules are different for tax and NIC. For tax, see, for example s56 of ITEPA 2003 for tax and EEC regulation 1408/71 for NIC.

John Antell

barrister

www.john.antell.name

[expat]

Re: tax and NIC

I had forgotten about temporary postings. But isn't that quite unlikely in our business? Doesn't it require that one be posted by one's company in a country other than the one where the services are supplied? It might be hard to convince the Revenue that you had posted yourself from France on secondment as part of an ongoing business; if they looked at your UK contract in isolation.

[antell]

Re: tax and NIC

It might be hard to convince the Revenue that you had posted yourself from France on secondment as part of an ongoing business; if they looked at your UK contract in isolation.

This is where it becomes quite complex. For NIC IR35 to apply you have to be:

1. "in reality" within the UK NIC system, and

2. as regards the "hypothetical contract" with the client, an employed earner within the UK NIC system

I think what you are saying is that it may be difficult to show secondment as regards 2 because the client (=hypothetical employer) has not seconded the worker. This may well be so. However if in reality the worker is seconded he may avoid the UK NIC system altogether at stage 1 and therefore stage 2 becomes irrelevant.

Obviously it depends very much on the circumstances of the individual case

John Antell

barrister

www.john.antell.name

[Bradley]

Re:VAT

expat - what happens if the UK customer is an individual or a non-VAT registered body such as a local government body?

[expat]

Re: Re:VAT

Interesting question. Intracommunity VAT (i.e. the case where you bill a customer in another EU country without VAT) requires the invoice to state the intracommunity VAT numbers of both the supplier and the customer. So if the customer doesn't have one, you can't do it that way (and so I quess the supplier has to charge it after all; presumably the VAT of the country of supply, which could be irritating to implement).