Agency won't pay full invoice value

[Joe Black]

Oi! Nobody said "Rollover and take it". I did say "You screwed up", buy which I meant leaving a key financial document open to abuse. If you're in that much of a hurry you can't wait to get the last timesheet signed, and so guarantee payment (or at least have the argument about half days face-to-face) then you lose my sympathy.

at the end of the day it is YOUR fault that this has happened. You are supposed to get your timesheet signed and then you are supposed to send it in. If you are going to leave a timesheet to get it signed, don't leave your signature on it and get the client to send it back to you so that you can sign it and then send it on to the agency...At the end of the day YOU are at fault, and you are trying to blame somebody else for your own incompetance...you should have been the one getting the timesheet signed in the first place, and if you had you would have been able to argue it there and then.

Come on guys, what planet are you on?

If you've worked enough contracts then you will well know know that there are times when there is no-one around to sign a timesheet, no matter how long you hang round, and you end up having to make a choice of leaving it with someone else.

Had the same with my last one, not knowing all three line managers had decided that they're now going to have a meeting every Fri afternoon in a resto somewhere and leave work for the day at 12 o'clock. Likewise my Dec timesheet is still sitting at work because one manager was off sick and the other was off site the whole afternoon. Is that the contractors fault as well?

Whether NewCon4 is reasonable in leaving early, making up the hours, or what his/her terms of contract were is another issue. But what you're more or less saying is that if you leave an invoice with someone, because that's more or less what a timesheet is, it's ok if they cross out a few figures and reduce it from X to Y just because you weren't there to force them to sign the cheque.

[Denny]

Come on guys, what planet are you on?

If you've worked enough contracts then you will well know know that there are times when there is no-one around to sign a timesheet, no matter how long you hang round, and you end up having to make a choice of leaving it with someone else.

Had the same with my last one, not knowing all three line managers had decided that they're now going to have a meeting every Fri afternoon in a resto somewhere and leave work for the day at 12 o'clock. Likewise my Dec timesheet is still sitting at work because one manager was off sick and the other was off site the whole afternoon. Is that the contractors fault as well?

Whether NewCon4 is reasonable in leaving early, making up the hours, or what his/her terms of contract were is another issue. But what you're more or less saying is that if you leave an invoice with someone, because that's more or less what a timesheet is, it's ok if they cross out a few figures and reduce it from X to Y just because you weren't there to force them to sign the cheque.

My last client - a programme director - sometimes signed mine a week in advance if he was away on business the following last Friday of the month. If I was working out of my home office, instead of going in just to get it signed I sometimes just rubbed out the days on a previous month's already signed timesheet and added the new billable days relevant to the current month and scanned and sent to over to him to confirm by e-mail that he agreed the days I was billing the EB. The EB never objected to viewing tippexed old timesheets as confirmation of new billable hours for the current month either.

[Sockpuppet]

My last agency wouldnt accept expenses unless on an offical form signed...I had a letterhead signed.

GIMP / Photoshop are great tools for forging. Plus it was faxed in.

As long as the amts stayed the same I dont see the harm.

[Sockpuppet]

A few people have said now to "take it on the chin" or terms there of. By my calculations though - even if I lose a days pay in recovering the money - then I will be no worse off than if I just write the debt off - obviously I would have to win the claim, but in my opinion it is a fair claim. I've already stated that I wasn't the first contractor to leave early that day - 2 had left by 1pm. My mistake was perhaps having the decency to inform the client!

We've mostly advised against SCC. If you want to then that is your party.

However... you opinion is not nessecelary law. My opinion is that speed limits need to be 90 on motorways.

Just becuase other contractors leave early doesnt mean you do. Different contractors different rules. If they jumped off a cliff would you and all that...

[Ardesco]

Come on guys, what planet are you on?

If you've worked enough contracts then you will well know know that there are times when there is no-one around to sign a timesheet, no matter how long you hang round, and you end up having to make a choice of leaving it with someone else.

If it is my last day at a gig i make damn sure I know when the person who signs my timesheet is going to leave and make sure they sign it before I go. If I have to wait around an extra 2 hours to get it signed I will (and i'll invoice the client as it is my time they are wasting). If worst comes to worst i'll go back in the next moday and get it signed, I wouldn't leave it with somebody else as I don't know if they are going to fiddle my figures or not.

Whether NewCon4 is reasonable in leaving early, making up the hours, or what his/her terms of contract were is another issue. But what you're more or less saying is that if you leave an invoice with someone, because that's more or less what a timesheet is, it's ok if they cross out a few figures and reduce it from X to Y just because you weren't there to force them to sign the cheque.

I'm not saying it is OK for them to do it, i'm saying tulip happens and you should expect it to happen. I am also saying that for the amount of money we are talking about it is not worth going to all this trouble. What are we talking £150? £200 max ?

It will cost you more than that in lost earnings, travel to court, time spent preparing your case, time appealing the decision when it goes against you. You will be substantially down at the end of the day.

When you go to court the agency will produce the following:

A Timesheet for 13.5 days signed by YOU and the client
An invoice for 13.5 days sent to the agency by YOU
Proof that they were paid for 13.5 days by thier client
Proof that they paid you for 13.5 days

What will you present?

A story about how you think you should have got an extra half day with no signed proof from any external party that you are entitled to it, in fact no evidence at all?

If you were the judge looking at the available evidence (note that evidence is a big thing in court) would you award the case to some guy moaning that he wants an extra £150-£200 even though he can't prove that he is entitled to it, or would you throw the case out?

I know what I would do....

If you want to take it to court, waste your time and money and burn all your bridges with the client and the agency go for it. More fool you.

Put your business hat on and work out the figures and you will see that the most sensible and cost effective option is to walk away.

[Joe Black]

If it is my last day at a gig i make damn sure I know when the person who signs my timesheet is going to leave and make sure they sign it before I go. If I have to wait around an extra 2 hours to get it signed I will (and i'll invoice the client as it is my time they are wasting). If worst comes to worst i'll go back in the next moday and get it signed.

Ardesco, if you contract enough years, the phrase "best laid plan of mice and men" etc is something you should know.

I've spent whole afternoons, not just 2 hours, waiting to get a time sheet signed, where no-one seemed to know where manager A or B was, or they were expected in but both are off sick. Sure I'm going to go back in and drive two hours south of where I live on Monday morning while my new contract starting that same day is two hours north, or maybe in a completely different country...

My point as stated is not whether he should/should not be paid for the hours, or whether it's a a good idea to go to the SCC, it's simply questioning why you or anyone should think just because someone didn't manage to get a timesheet signed on their last day it's their fault and they deserve it.

[XperTest]

Facts are:

a) you did not work a full day yet claimed it and in your defence all you can do is point to other contractors leaving even earlier;
b) you claimed for 13,5 days and got paid for 13,5 days
c) you don't have a cat's chance in hell of getting the extra 0,5 day through court as explained by Ardesco
d) by still attempting to do so you will piss of your client and the EB
e) contracting is a small world, hence d) might well come back to haunt you one day in the future

It doesn't make sense businesswise, financially or even for your personal state of mind to chase this up. I would feel bad for you if you had indeed worked the full day and was bullied into saying that you didn't, but you more or less admit (by not answering questions) that you did not compensate for leaving early, so you don't get my sympathy and I suggest you look at it as a lesson learned the hard way.

[Robwg]

I agree you are getting f*cked over here - mainly over the client changing your timesheet before they signed it (which is illegal isn't it)?

Then again - you should have made sure he signed it in your presence before you left and had it out with them then over this issue.

Bottom line is - 200 quid? Can you really be arsed? I couldn't.

Live and learn.

[NewCon4]

Well, yes I can be arsed. If £150 fell out of your wallet a mile back down the road, would you not turn round and see if you could recover it? - this may not be the same, but for me, its the principle of the thing. I know I did the hours, and I know in this case what the agency commission was on my earnings.

I was contracted for "Days", and haven't even negotiated half-daily rates - nor did the client or the agency ask me what half a day would cost them.

I did make the time up the following Friday when I left after 4pm - bearing in mind I had a verbal agreement with the client that my hours were flexibile due to long travel distances. My current client are also happy with this arrangement as long as hours are completed.

I will go to court if it isn't paid - and I'll share my experiences. If I learn a lesson - well - I'm old enough to have to pay for my education!

[meridian]

Well, yes I can be arsed. If £150 fell out of your wallet a mile back down the road, would you not turn round and see if you could recover it? - this may not be the same, but for me, its the principle of the thing. I know I did the hours, and I know in this case what the agency commission was on my earnings.

I was contracted for "Days", and haven't even negotiated half-daily rates - nor did the client or the agency ask me what half a day would cost them.

I did make the time up the following Friday when I left after 4pm - bearing in mind I had a verbal agreement with the client that my hours were flexibile due to long travel distances. My current client are also happy with this arrangement as long as hours are completed.

If you were contracted for "Days", how did working an extra couple of hours manage to make this up? Surely any extra time would still fall under the current "Day" that you were charging for anyway?

Most contractors would put in a bit extra here and there anyway, especially on a daily rate. "Making up time" is a bit permie-ish imo, you've either worked a half or a full day or you haven't. Are you claiming that you worked a half day one day, but a day and a half in another?

I will go to court if it isn't paid - and I'll share my experiences. If I learn a lesson - well - I'm old enough to have to pay for my education!

Fair enough, I guess if after reading all of this thread you're still prepared to go to court then nothing's going to change your mind!